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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:35:26 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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OMG cuddles *hugs you*...dont get me all crying again!....thank you so much....you are such a good friend....

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

You are a very special woman to have touched him the way you did, and trust me, you did touch him.

_____________________________

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"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to cuddleheart50)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:40:44 PM

Badkitty0810

Posts: 223
Joined: 2/18/2006
From: NH
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Noah, all I can say is "wow". You said that beautifully.

CrouchingTigress, I wish I had something more to add, but Noah seems to have expressed everything so beautifully that to expand on it would be a moot point. Let me say that I hope your boy is able to find peace within himself and that he will eventually learn how to trust. Hugs to both of you.

(in reply to Noah)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:42:51 PM

LokisBrat

Posts: 431
Joined: 12/5/2005
From: Mayberry, Illinois
Status: offline

[/quote]

Exactly. As much as it hurts, crouchingtigress, he *has* tried... for you! It may be too big as step, too high a wall, for now (whatever metaphor you want to use), but he risked as much as he was able for you, and that is a huge thing.

[/quote]

I absolutely agree with this. A valient effort should be praised as much as success. I don't know too many people in my circle of life that don't carry emotional trauma. Without a doubt some are worse than others. It is in a situation like this, that a friend is needed, not a master, sub, or slave, but a genuine compassionate friend. My heart goes out to your friend and I wish nothing but the best possible outcome for him. It is a comforting feeling to know you can bring your problems to a genuine friend without fear of being judged. Once again I am touched by this post, my heart can feel nothing but sympathy for I am no stranger in dealing with emotional trauma. My brat has had terrible experiences as a young child, as I have myself. Issues of trust are always surfacing and re-evaluated. Positive thoughts are being sent your way from the bottom of my little black heart.

LOKI

_____________________________

"My pleasure, your pain. Doesn't matter, its all the same"

-Loki

(in reply to Misstoyou)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:44:26 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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I really do see where he is coming from, i have been in those very shoes, and someone came in to my life and helped me break out of the "cage" slave jali referred to in her post.

I am a firm believer that our thoughts create our experiences which then validates our thoughts which then creates more like experiances....i know it is a vicious hamster wheel and that often we are desperate to get off but have no idea how to go about it.

Again thank you for attempting to help, zenofeller....all perspectives are welcome

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

well, let's try to do a bit of living in the guy's shoes. (entirely fictious examples)

he was in a spot more than once in his life. (needed a fix) he did what seemed to him reasonable (stole some stuff to buy fix). he got caught and ended up in prison. going by what seemed reasonable to him at the time, he ended up in trouble.

going through this cycle a few times, the idea begins to form, that he might end up in trouble doing things that seem perfectly reasonable. while this is a risk for absolutely everyone, he perceives it vastly overblown. and to this, add the part where he feels safer with things he understands to be wrong, because unlike thinks that appear to be right, he at least won't be both hurt and confused. he'd be just hurt. but hurt is his lot no matter what. at least this way he doesn't have to face confusion too.

it's perfectly reasonable, and understandable. people may find themselves in that predicament. they don't have to be necessarily stupid or bad for it.

now, that said, can you understand where he's coming from ? try the mental exercise, put yourself in his shoes, play some scenarios in your head. can you feel it ?

i imagine the best cure is responsibility. can he mentor some kids ? work as a volunteer somewhere ? suicide line, women's shelter, animal shelter, anything ? can he go to the country and help on a farm ?

anything that would put him in a position to do things and feel their results, again and again and again, over the course of one day. he can learn to trust himself again that way, just like someone who has injured his spine can learn to walk again. they just need to feel the ground. again and again. feel it tho. not hit it.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

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"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:45:30 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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Thank you badkitty, Noahs post is going to be printed and put on my computer wall...i have actually felt a shift in my healing process just from reading and rereading it today....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Badkitty0810

Noah, all I can say is "wow". You said that beautifully.

CrouchingTigress, I wish I had something more to add, but Noah seems to have expressed everything so beautifully that to expand on it would be a moot point. Let me say that I hope your boy is able to find peace within himself and that he will eventually learn how to trust. Hugs to both of you.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 6/26/2006 4:54:02 PM >

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:45:46 PM

LTRsubNW

Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
If however, i am wrong in my assessment, and you can lead a horse to water and make him drink, please tell me how to do this, because the impasse we find ourselves in is that he does trust me, as that i have not hurt him, but he can not trust that in the future i will not hurt him.

Well, after my failed (but valiant) attempts at humor, I'll give you a brief window into my world and then attempt to answer the question.

I have trust issues. For those who know me who occasionally read my prose, this will be a first for them. Actually, it may even be significant news.

Nevertheless, my Mother lied. A lot. Excessively. She should have been a professional liar.

Had she, I'm sure no one would have signed her contracts.

"Everything I say is a lie...including this, our most recent agreement. Sign here".

Hence, I don't trust women.

It's actually more than I don't trust women...(almost) every woman I've ever been in a relationship with (with one exception), I assumed that if her lips were moving...she was lying.

All I ever wanted was some kind of proof that "this one" wouldn't do it to me again...wouldn't hurt me again...would be trustworthy.

It actually doesn't take much. It takes awareness that this is an issue for me, it takes effort to know that at least for a time I'm watching everything and aware of every comment...and yes...expecting her to lie to me. If I had confidence that this wouldn't be the case (i.e., that she wouldn't lie), my walls would drop.

One didn't. (Lie, that is).

Unfortunately, among other reasons, my fears (and concurrent failure to act appropriately) caused that relationship to fail.

Nevertheless...I suspect (and I'm not Freud, or however that's spelled) he wants the same level of confidence in you...that you aren't going to do this thing to him, because of him, for him or with him.

Find out from him why this thing or things happened, why he thinks they did, what were the causations and how he thinks those that did it to him could have avoided doing so....and then ask him one very simple, but important question...

"Will you please tell me when you feel like that, or when events cause you to feel (I'm doing XXX) so we can discuss it, so I can change what I'm doing, or so that I can show you that exactly the opposite thoughts were in my thinking?"

It's a start :)

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 6/26/2006 4:52:00 PM >

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:46:24 PM

LaTigresse

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It is a tough thing, I may be wrong, but perhaps by the very nature of our relationships, a much bigger issue in this lifestyle. I agree with cuddles, wether he is able to express it or not be assured that you have touched him more deeply than you know.

(in reply to LokisBrat)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:50:06 PM

GoreanBob

Posts: 12
Joined: 9/25/2004
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OK backspin a bit.....

think about this.....you've done nothing he can point to........perhaps he has and you don't know it.....he might want to spare your feelings and thus skate witrh no guilt for breaking your heart and trust. When peoople can't give you a clear cut reason no matter how far fetched, they are just not saying it. the first rule of human behaviour its that EVERYTHING has a reason.

Bob

(in reply to sophia37)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:50:24 PM

LTRsubNW

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Joined: 5/6/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

You are a very special woman to have touched him the way you did, and trust me, you did touch him.

And...never forget....even if you didn't touch him...I'm available from noon to 4:30 this and the following next 3 weekends.

(Please remember to tip your waitress on the way out)

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 6/26/2006 4:55:35 PM >

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:55:23 PM

shyfem

Posts: 101
Joined: 2/16/2006
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I feel for you Crouching Tigress, a very long time ago I was with a man who had serious emotional problems. He kept everyone, including me at a distance. I often asked him to consider talking to a proffessional to which he balked at. In the end, I was the one that left because he could be there no more for me than he was for himself.

But just remember this saying as I think it will hold true for the impact that you had upon him.

"Touch my life and I will remember you, touch my heart and I will never forget you"

Even if you do not end up with this man in your life, trust that you had an impact by loving him as much as you did and being there for him.

Like andal stated, it may take some time for him to realize this but he will at some point and it will help in the healing process he must go through. For now I would try to at least remain friends.

~shy
------------------------------------------------
May all who tread here find what they seek!

(in reply to zenofeller)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 4:58:45 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
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From: Maui
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Gosh Loki i love you, i mean it, not like i am picking out curtains or anything, *grin* i just adore your heart, your impish and gental little black heart and i know the brat is in the best capable hands as you both strive to work on your trust issues... thank you for reaching out, and thank you for being you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LokisBrat

Exactly. As much as it hurts, crouchingtigress, he *has* tried... for you! It may be too big as step, too high a wall, for now (whatever metaphor you want to use), but he risked as much as he was able for you, and that is a huge thing.

I absolutely agree with this. A valient effort should be praised as much as success. I don't know too many people in my circle of life that don't carry emotional trauma. Without a doubt some are worse than others. It is in a situation like this, that a friend is needed, not a master, sub, or slave, but a genuine compassionate friend. My heart goes out to your friend and I wish nothing but the best possible outcome for him. It is a comforting feeling to know you can bring your problems to a genuine friend without fear of being judged. Once again I am touched by this post, my heart can feel nothing but sympathy for I am no stranger in dealing with emotional trauma. My brat has had terrible experiences as a young child, as I have myself. Issues of trust are always surfacing and re-evaluated. Positive thoughts are being sent your way from the bottom of my little black heart.

LOKI

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to LokisBrat)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:01:43 PM

TNstepsout

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Joined: 8/3/2005
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We probably all face trust issues at one time or another. I'm dealing with it myself. It's not a matter of trusting others necessarily, but trusting my own judgement of people, since I seemed to have been REALLY blind sided a couple of times pretty recently. It seems to me that's what he's saying. It's not you he doesn't trust, or at least, nothing you've done, but he's saying in the past the others never did anything to tip him off either so..... how can he really know?

I can soooooo relate.

So the only thing I can advise is to give him time and not push. Imagine it somewhat like an abused abandoned little kitty looking in a window, really, REALLY wanting some of that warmth and comfort he sees inside, but terrified to get withing reach. If you coax and cajole and constantly try to get it to come closer it's going to be worried that you have an ulterior motive for doing so. If instead you just go about your business, leaving a few tidbits here and there, eventually he'll see you mean no harm and come closer and closer.

Once he does, please refrain from leaping out and pouncing.

Give him some space, give him some time. Let him know in small ways you are there for him, you care, be a friend and ask nothing in return.

(in reply to zenofeller)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:11:48 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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Thank you so much for sharing and opening your heart, i know that cant be easy for you.

I appreciate the wisdom in your words, that if only there was a guarantee that i would not lie (his mom lied to him too) that then i could be trusted....I have given him this guarantee and i am always willing to discuss and shift behavior to help him feel safe...

Sadly, i think, as it was with when i could not love others because i could not love myself, it would be a bottomless pitt...no amount of love will ever make some one who does not love themselves, love...and i am afraid the same goes with trust...

He will have to find his own path with it, but as Loki and estring have reminded me, i can still be a good friend and hopefully through that seeds will be sewn....this thread has been so healing for me...reminding me that all can really do is be there for him if and when he should want that as a friend....and that "no wall is too high" but the wall climber needs to be ready....

quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

Well, after my failed (but valiant) attempts at humor, I'll give you a brief window into my world and then attempt to answer the question.

I have trust issues. For those who know me who occasionally read my prose, this will be a first for them. Actually, it may even be significant news.

Nevertheless, my Mother lied. A lot. Excessively. She should have been a professional liar.

Had she, I'm sure no one would have signed her contracts.

"Everything I say is a lie...including this, our most recent agreement. Sign here".

Hence, I don't trust women.

It's actually more than I don't trust women...(almost) every woman I've ever been in a relationship with (with one exception), I assumed that if her lips were moving...she was lying.

All I ever wanted was some kind of proof that "this one" wouldn't do it to me again...wouldn't hurt me again...would be trustworthy.

It actually doesn't take much. It takes awareness that this is an issue for me, it takes effort to know that at least for a time I'm watching everything and aware of every comment...and yes...expecting her to lie to me. If I had confidence that this wouldn't be the case (i.e., that she wouldn't lie), my walls would drop.

One didn't. (Lie, that is).

Unfortunately, among other reasons, my fears (and concurrent failure to act appropriately) caused that relationship to fail.

Nevertheless...I suspect (and I'm not Freud, or however that's spelled) he wants the same level of confidence in you...that you aren't going to do this thing to him, because of him, for him or with him.

Find out from him why this thing or things happened, why he thinks they did, what were the causations and how he thinks those that did it to him could have avoided doing so....and then ask him one very simple, but important question...

"Will you please tell me when you feel like that, or when events cause you to feel (I'm doing XXX) so we can discuss it, so I can change what I'm doing, or so that I can show you that exactly the opposite thoughts were in my thinking?"

It's a start :)

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to LTRsubNW)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:19:16 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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Thank you Tigress, you do have a point there, i know that he was hoping for the structure of D/s to help him push through his trust issues....

Some may not be in favor of that, but i know that i was very wounded sexually and have healed 100 percent because of my former Master/slave relationship because saying "not now Sir" was never and option....*grin*

I grin now, but back then it was infuriating, humiliating and terrifying....but it worked, and i have reclaimed my sexuality and sensuality in a way i never thought possible....i can only hope the same for him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It is a tough thing, I may be wrong, but perhaps by the very nature of our relationships, a much bigger issue in this lifestyle. I agree with cuddles, wether he is able to express it or not be assured that you have touched him more deeply than you know.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to LaTigresse)

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Post #: 34

RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:25:43 PM

LokisBrat

Posts: 431
Joined: 12/5/2005
From: Mayberry, Illinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

Gosh Loki i love you, i mean it, not like i am picking out curtains or anything, *grin* i just adore your heart, your impish and gental little black heart and i know the brat is in the best capable hands as you both strive to work on your trust issues... thank you for reaching out, and thank you for being you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LokisBrat

Exactly. As much as it hurts, crouchingtigress, he *has* tried... for you! It may be too big as step, too high a wall, for now (whatever metaphor you want to use), but he risked as much as he was able for you, and that is a huge thing.

I absolutely agree with this. A valient effort should be praised as much as success. I don't know too many people in my circle of life that don't carry emotional trauma. Without a doubt some are worse than others. It is in a situation like this, that a friend is needed, not a master, sub, or slave, but a genuine compassionate friend. My heart goes out to your friend and I wish nothing but the best possible outcome for him. It is a comforting feeling to know you can bring your problems to a genuine friend without fear of being judged. Once again I am touched by this post, my heart can feel nothing but sympathy for I am no stranger in dealing with emotional trauma. My brat has had terrible experiences as a young child, as I have myself. Issues of trust are always surfacing and re-evaluated. Positive thoughts are being sent your way from the bottom of my little black heart.

LOKI

Thank you so very much. Brat also thanks you for we are both truly touched and please know we are able and willing to discuss this if needed.

LOKI

_____________________________

"My pleasure, your pain. Doesn't matter, its all the same"

-Loki

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:30:15 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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That of course is an option, it is possible he is "just not that into me", but i doubt it, in his mind he does have a clear cut reason, in his mind it is black and white.

The fact that both you and i dont relate to it, does not make a non-valid reason. Just ask TNstepsout, because she would disagree....for me to not validate his feelings because i dont understand them would be counterproductive to me growing from this experience the way i want/need to.

Thank you for your perspective though, all POVs are welcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoreanBob

OK backspin a bit.....

think about this.....you've done nothing he can point to........perhaps he has and you don't know it.....he might want to spare your feelings and thus skate witrh no guilt for breaking your heart and trust. When peoople can't give you a clear cut reason no matter how far fetched, they are just not saying it. the first rule of human behaviour its that EVERYTHING has a reason.

Bob

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to GoreanBob)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:43:56 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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Thank you for your beautiful post shyfem, i will offer him the friendship and hope that he will take it ....but if not, i leave knowing that i offered him the highest level of integrity and love and compassion i have ever offered anyone so far in my life .........and that part feels really good.

Your post reminded me of something my spiritual teacher used to say

dont be angry at the man that does not reach out to lend you a hand

for if you look closely he has not got and arm...

quote:

ORIGINAL: shyfem

I feel for you Crouching Tigress, a very long time ago I was with a man who had serious emotional problems. He kept everyone, including me at a distance. I often asked him to consider talking to a proffessional to which he balked at. In the end, I was the one that left because he could be there no more for me than he was for himself.

But just remember this saying as I think it will hold true for the impact that you had upon him.

"Touch my life and I will remember you, touch my heart and I will never forget you"

Even if you do not end up with this man in your life, trust that you had an impact by loving him as much as you did and being there for him.

Like andal stated, it may take some time for him to realize this but he will at some point and it will help in the healing process he must go through. For now I would try to at least remain friends.

~shy
------------------------------------------------
May all who tread here find what they seek!

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to shyfem)

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 5:57:52 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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Thank you sophia! wow i did not see you slip in to this thread *grin* you clever girl *hug* you are a good friend too ...this is beautiful: ....thank you .....

"Its more fun to walk this earth hand in hand than one alone."

quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

You are a good friend crouchingTigress. A kind decent caring person. So I can thank you for that. And I can say, hey good friend of Crouching Tigress, take notice. One does not let good friends go. When you find them, you keep them. Good people come in handy for lifetime.

Life is hard. As you well know. Good friends make it a tad easier. So hold on, be open, and for heavens sakes, grab all the goodness that comes your way. Thats what sweetens the bitter. When someone offers you their hand, take it. Just take it.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

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"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 6:31:25 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
His reasoning is this: He feels that there is a possibility that his judgment is so bad based in past results, that he is probably missing something and that it is because he can not see how i could possibly hurt him, that i could hurt him because he could never did see the other hurts coming either...

He can not trust me because he does not trust himself ..and he is intelligent enough to see it, and humble enough to admit it, but is still paralyzed to do anything about it.......and that is what makes me so sad today......can you see the heart of the matter more clearly now?

These two paragraphs really hit home for me. I was in this same position just a few years ago. You can't trust anyone else if you can't even trust yourself. For me, it took many small little leaps of faith. Trusting myself in something that doesn't risk too much and then validating that I made a good decision. Then slowly increasing the amount of risk in each decision, until I believed that I could trust myself again. The challenging tests have come when I decided I was ready to be in a relationship again. The risks are so much greater but then for me it comes down to the fact that I trust myself to take care of me. Even if it all goes horribly wrong, I know I can take care of me, but it took years for me to reach this point.

It isn't an easy path to walk, but it can be done; I hope he finds his way to trusting himself again.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: When You Hit a Brick Wall of Trust..... - 6/26/2006 6:58:48 PM

Irishblu

Posts: 61
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To me trust is a bridge in any relationship/friendship. It is built one stone at a time. You being the supporting friend you are, believe me is a HUGE stone on that bridge. No one can say what it is exactly that will turn that light on over his head and he realizes "Hey, this person is someone I can trust", it will just happen.

All I can say to you is, just be there for him. Let him know that even scarred and damaged (to ME that is how it feels when you have been hurt) he is worth trust. It is so hard when those scars that are deep, will push some people away. Making you feel that you have done something wrong. From just reading this post, I wish we could clone you crouching tigress!! Seems you see past those and see him for who he is. My hat off to you!

To those that have been hurt and trust is a big issue, you know it's just not the other person you need to realize you can trust, but YOURSELF. That is where it all starts, within ourselves.

I'd wave my magic wand if I could, but the batteries died! LOL That is what my youngest offspring says when she has been hurt and comes to me. I tell her, I cannot fix you, but I love you no matter what.

imho...

Be safe and be well,
irish

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