BDSM: Cultural Shift

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Itsthetruth -> BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/16/2013 11:21:59 PM)
It looks like BDSM is experiencing a change in culture.You have the old timers from the past few decades and then the newer,younger generation.This issue is as old as time itself."Out with the old and in with the new".Do the oldtimer's share their experience or do they hate where BDSM is heading?How does the younger generation view themselves?Too many cliques in BDSM.When does common interest outweigh petty differences?In the end,cooperation will always triumph over competition.

tazzygirl -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/16/2013 11:51:14 PM)
First, you would need to explain how BDSM itself has changed through the generations. Is there really fundemntal changes other than the acceptance level of those on the "outside"? Then, maybe a discussion on the differences between "younger" and "older".. are we talking about just ages here or time in the "lifestyle" itself? Someone can be brand new at 43.

SoulAlloy -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/16/2013 11:57:24 PM)
I can't say I've noticed that much of a change in the culture over the past six years, the faces have largely changed but the song remains the same - perhaps it's a bit bigger than I remember (though in other areas it's shrunk). There's always been cliques, although I find that when newbies come into the scene the cliques come together and mingle a lot more. You get the odd argument, the odd division, typically as friends pick sides. As the scene gets bigger this has less impact and whilst the rifts might not heal the scene marches on.

BambiBoi -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 12:55:42 AM)
Across all (many? most?) fields we're seeing an increase in niche appeal and specialization and a decrease in generalists.

ResidentSadist -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 2:06:29 AM)
I'm old enough and experienced enough to share my perspectives on change with you. It goes like this . . . When I entered the scene in 1971, I was the TNG and the leather community was 90% gay. Most hetros were treated a bit like tourists (outcasts) despite the pansexual efforts of the 60s that got my predecessors to open their arms and some of their doors to the hetros, it was still fresh and it stung like hell. It stung because the leather community leaders had lived through a time when homosexuality was classified as a mental illness and hetros hunted them, beat them, arrested them, forced them into institutions and gay bashing often ended in death. So opening their hearts to the pansexual movement to let all you straight mother fuckers in was a real big kick in the pants. Hell, females still weren't allowed in most all of the leather clubs I went to in the early 70s. Instead, they had a "tourist night" (wed or thur) that let straights into the clubs on the slow nights. I was the very first person to ever bring a female into the Interchange (70s) . . . the doorman who knew me well, looked down at my girl who was at the end of a leash on all fours, he said, "no women allowed" . . . I said, that's not a woman, that's my slave. He took a very long pause and let us pass. That was a big moment. I mean there are signs on club doors that say "no women allowed", the bouncers were BIG ass gym fags and they all were built like Arnold . . . nothing ever happened in a Detroit (gay) leather bar that the bouncers didn't approve of. So if I got past the door, it was all good from there . . . sorta'. The waiter was bitch and the bartender gave me dirty looks but we made it. We returned the next week, and week after we brought another female. Soon, the "tuna" was allowed to school in the corner. I grew up in the Detroit gay leather bar scene. It had a rough edge, sex under the tables, bloody beatings on the stages, ball sack inflation, gang bangs and that was out in the club, you should have seen what was going on in the back room and the bathrooms. As you see by the above stories, BDSM is always experiencing a change in culture because it is an extension of our human sexuality. Although we have come a long way since the Victorians, we still have a long way to go. I believe I can solidly predict that BDSM will continue experiencing a change in culture for many more decades to come. The social aspect of BDSM is a product of the 40s. It has been around for less than a century and was born in its earliest days as S&M. It was Freud's Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality that truly established sadism as a household word in 1905. So in the 40s when the leathermen were giving birth to the leather culture, sadism hadn't even existed for a century. BDSM is young. It may not last a century until 2040 and like the DSM-V which swallowed up sadism and masochism removing it from the paraphilia list in this most recent 5th edition, society's sexual appetite and social morals may swallow BDSM whole. The general public may absorb us and all our leather making it all acceptable and just an extension of a healthy normal vanilla sex life. We may fade out, becoming a very minor foot note in the history of man, a passing sex fad with little impact on humanity compared to the Victorians. So with our extinction possibly looming just over the horizon, I suggest you brothers and sisters embrace the richness of our BDSM culture while you can because it is forever changing. Go hug the oldest leatherman you can find and thank him. Yes I know the etymology of sadism; first used in 1834 then used again Psychopathia Sexualis by Krafft-Ebing popularized it 1886 but Frued is the one that really made it a layman's word in 1905. I rest my case.

robertodom1 -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 2:10:11 AM)
I think there have always been cliques in BDSM and that's normal, when you have so many people that have different interests in BDSM world... there are many kinks, in BDSM, and every group of kinksters who have the same kink tends to form a clique... but now there is a great possibility to contact kinksters in other parts of the world, you can feel less alone, while I think that some years ago was very hard to find same-minded people...

LadyPact -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 2:36:12 AM)
I'm afraid I have the same question as tazzy. Is there a particular culture that you were seeing before that isn't present now? As a leather person, I'm used to the concept of generations of leather. It's impossible to ignore what changes have brought into the our (leather) culture. I suppose the same could be applied to the internet generation and the 18-20 memberships being adjusted. The latter hasn't entirely taken hold in regard to many major events and such, so it's really not complete. While TNG has probably become one of the most popular sig (special interest groups) in many places, there are still many groups and events out there which are 21 and up. quote: Do the oldtimer's share their experience or do they hate where BDSM is heading? I share experience and teach topping skills, etc but I do it primarily in the physical world and not especially on the net. I'm still a hands on type when it comes to showing somebody how to do something. The old saying of "each one teach one" doesn't necessarily translate into "each one teach everyone". I'm far more effective in person and it's also where it benefits Me most directly. quote: Too many cliques in BDSM. I move every 2-5 years and when I say move, I mean serious geographical locations. In other words, I'm the new person to the group on a fairly frequent basis. I haven't run into this problem. Then again, I don't walk into groups and expect everybody to make Me the most important person in the room. I grasp the fact that many times, folks have long term friends that they want to spend their time with, rather than dedicate all of their time on the new person to the area who walked in the door. Building friendships takes time and I don't expect people to skip the conversations, friends, and priorities that they have for themselves just because I showed up. quote: When does common interest outweigh petty differences?In the end,cooperation will always triumph over competition. When it actually is a common interest. It benefits Me directly when people are in accordance with the dungeon rules, engaging in relatively safe forms of play, and have behaviors that don't bring negative consequences to the dungeon and/or play space. That's the stuff that everybody agrees to when they sign that nice acknowledgement that they have read and accept the dungeon rules when they show up. Just for Myself, I'm in any one of four given roles when it comes to a play space. Attendee, demo presenter, DM, or host on those occasions when we've held things here at home. I'm going to say that host is the most work. I consider Myself the ultimate responsibility for that which includes making the place comfortable for guests, menu, invites, making all guests welcome, safety, and possibly play. Demo presenter would be next. I consider it My job to teach on the subject(s) that I've been slotted for and that involves the prep work, the actual demo, and usually answering questions throughout the event/party. I'm not there for My personal reasons. I've agreed to have the responsibility of teaching for the duration. DM I also see as a job, but it's for the time period agreed and it has much different responsibilities. I'm "staff" for the duration of the DM shift and the rest of the time is My own. Attendee? I'm there like anybody else who has paid their entry fee at the door. I'm there to play and socialize with the folks that I am looking forward to spending time with. Yes, that means I am there for My own fun. I didn't pay the door fee so I could spend My time on other people's interests, unless I've actually agreed to do so prior to arriving and have made that a part of My plans. I don't bump My own play plans to teach other people what they want to learn. There are other opportunities for that.

DarkSteven -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 4:41:51 AM)
The leather community and Old Guard used to control things. They've faded away until only a few members of them remain. I don't identify with them, so I guess you could call me the new generation. That said, at 57 yo I'm way too old to belong to the TNG group.

ResidentSadist -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 7:37:20 AM)
You and I were born in the decade following the Old Guard and the beginning of leather. As Laura Antoniou put it, we are the Middle Aged Guard.

MasterCaneman -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 7:44:59 AM)
I'm in a weird position here. I started in The Scene back in 1985, so like DS I'm not TNG by a long shot, but after a few years I took a loooooong hiatus while going about my life. The 80's scene was different from the 70's, etc, etc. It's interesting what Resident Sadist brought up about the gay clubs barring women. The club I worked for was created largely to deal with that issue, because the local (SLC) scene was extremely rigid and secretive, for its own sake. There was a venue (which I shall not name-it's still in business) that even barred femmes and cross-dressers except on Halloween. In a weird way, they echoed the rigid conservative values on the at-large community. That's the thing with rigid structures-over time, stress causes fractures. I feel it was the growing acceptance of the biker culture and the heavy-metal scene (especially glam rock) that started the change we're seeing today. Add in the influence of things like MTV and the early internet, and it started to adapt to the new landscape. Hell, in '85, a girl walking down the sidewalk in a bikin top would have gotten a public indecency ticket there-last time I visited, I saw a gaggle of joggers go past Temple Square in outfits that would've qualified as lingerie back then. What I see now in the scene is a lot of political and social influences-from militaristic tropes to ones that reflect the surge in animal rights and the Green movement. Oh, and science fiction and fantasy makes it's appearance more and more in what I've been seeing out there. We've had Gor around for awhile, but now it seems that more fantasy themes seem to play out. How many of you folks reading this are SCA? Go on, raise your hands, no one but your cat and the NSA can see you. Like all human cultures, it evolves and adapts to the external stimuli around it. No different than any other thing we've done as a species.

Charles6682 -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 7:49:32 AM)
Where does that leave me? I am 31 years old and I guess my first "real" introduction to BDSM was when I was 19 back in 2001? Although my interest in this "way of life" goes back to when I was a kid.

ResidentSadist -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 7:52:46 AM)
^ That puts you in generation X. So you are the X guard. [:)]

Charles6682 -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 8:04:44 AM)
You do make some excellent points here RS. While I am glad that BDSM has become more acceptable in society over the past 10 years, I do not think it should be at the cost of the BDSM community losing it's identity. Times have changed but I have also had a thing for history. It really does help explain where we are at as people. I can certainly thank those before me for helping to "pave" the way. A lot of things in life have changed quite a bit over the past 50 years. I am sure most people in the "South" can vouch for that. Sometimes, change is for the better but it does leave unintended actions. It leaves the impression of a "loss of a community". I do like that S&M has been mostly removed from the DSM. With all these recent studies lately, people who are into BDSM are no more insane or sane than the rest of society. 1 benefit I could see from the "old days", is that someone who was really into this "Lifestyle", probably really had to go out of their way to meet like minded people. I am grateful for the internet and sites like Collarme here but it does seem these days, anyone who has read "50 shades of Grey" or seen Rihanna's "S&M" music video and now they are "pros" on the "Lifestyle". I do think it takes more than a book,song or movie to grasp this. That all said, times have changed and I see a lot of it as an improvement. I don't think the past should be forgotten because there was a time when being so open, wasn't the smartest thing to do. So, who carries the "torch" now? Without those who walked this path before, how can any "newbie" ever learn who they are. I come on Collarchat for the advice mostly. I don't even use Collarme except here and there. See if there's any new face's in my area. But beyond that, I come here in Collarchat for "lessons" taught in here. Even if I don't always agree with everybody, I do have enough respect to hear all points of views. That's the only way I can ever truly "learn". I learn from those with experience. The newbie is still trying to figure out who they are. quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist I'm old enough and experienced enough to share my perspectives on change with you. It goes like this . . . When I entered the scene in 1971, I was the TNG and the leather community was 90% gay. Most hetros were treated a bit like tourists (outcasts) despite the pansexual efforts of the 60s that got my predecessors to open their arms and some of their doors to the hetros, it was still fresh and it stung like hell. It stung because the leather community leaders had lived through a time when homosexuality was classified as a mental illness and hetros hunted them, beat them, arrested them, forced them into institutions and gay bashing often ended in death. So opening their hearts to the pansexual movement to let all you straight mother fuckers in was a real big kick in the pants. Hell, females still weren't allowed in most all of the leather clubs I went to in the early 70s. Instead, they had a "tourist night" (wed or thur) that let straights into the clubs on the slow nights. I was the very first person to ever bring a female into the Interchange (70s) . . . the doorman who knew me well, looked down at my girl who was at the end of a leash on all fours, he said, "no women allowed" . . . I said, that's not a woman, that's my slave. He took a very long pause and let us pass. That was a big moment. I mean there are signs on club doors that say "no women allowed", the bouncers were BIG ass gym fags and they all were built like Arnold . . . nothing ever happened in a Detroit (gay) leather bar that the bouncers didn't approve of. So if I got past the door, it was all good from there . . . sorta'. The waiter was bitch and the bartender gave me dirty looks but we made it. We returned the next week, and week after we brought another female. Soon, the "tuna" was allowed to school in the corner. I grew up in the Detroit gay leather bar scene. It had a rough edge, sex under the tables, bloody beatings on the stages, ball sack inflation, gang bangs and that was out in the club, you should have seen what was going on in the back room and the bathrooms. As you see by the above stories, BDSM is always experiencing a change in culture because it is an extension of our human sexuality. Although we have come a long way since the Victorians, we still have a long way to go. I believe I can solidly predict that BDSM will continue experiencing a change in culture for many more decades to come. The social aspect of BDSM is a product of the 40s. It has been around for less than a century and was born in its earliest days as S&M. It was Freud's Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality that truly established sadism as a household word in 1905. So in the 40s when the leathermen were giving birth to the leather culture, sadism hadn't even existed for a century. BDSM is young. It may not last a century until 2040 and like the DSM-V which swallowed up sadism and masochism removing it from the paraphilia list in this most recent 5th edition, society's sexual appetite and social morals may swallow BDSM whole. The general public may absorb us and all our leather making it all acceptable and just an extension of a healthy normal vanilla sex life. We may fade out, becoming a very minor foot note in the history of man, a passing sex fad with little impact on humanity compared to the Victorians. So with our extinction possibly looming just over the horizon, I suggest you brothers and sisters embrace the richness of our BDSM culture while you can because it is forever changing. Go hug the oldest leatherman you can find and thank him. Yes I know the etymology of sadism; first used in 1834 then used again Psychopathia Sexualis by Krafft-Ebing popularized it 1886 but Frued is the one that really made it a layman's word in 1905. I rest my case.

SatinWhip -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 8:45:08 AM)
I've been at this long enough and I'm old enough to qualify as an old timer in either regard. I'll offer a different perspective. As someone who only has had only peripheral involvement in the public BDSM world the BDSM culture as I see it is my culture. Old guard, new guard, this guard, that guard. Doesn't really matter. BDSM is something I practice and enjoy here at home largely so the big picture doesn't impact me much. When I became involved in this in the late 70s and early 80s it was still largely an underground thing prior to the explosion of the public internet. I honestly wasn't even aware of whatever was available out there. I was busy dabbling in it and experiencing it on my own. Into the latter 90s and early 2000s I started to attend munches and play parties here and there but it was mostly just a social thing. Public play was never my thing because I don't like the limitations placed on it. Watching others do it usually bored me to tears. I dabbled in public play one time at the big local dungeon. I could not shake the thought of a DM looking over my shoulder and again the limitations so I never dabbled in it again. After a while I grew bored with the munches and play parties and retreated back to the house. So in the end, BDSM culture here at Castle SatinWhip is what I say it is. It's not influenced much by what happens in the BDSM community at large. I'm going to guess that there are a lot of private practitioners like myself who can say the same thing.

tazzygirl -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 8:45:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist ^ That puts you in generation X. So you are the X guard. [:)] Hmmm.. does that make a conservative who is into the lifestyle "Right Guard"?

sexyred1 -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 9:45:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Itsthetruth It looks like BDSM is experiencing a change in culture.You have the old timers from the past few decades and then the newer,younger generation.This issue is as old as time itself."Out with the old and in with the new".Do the oldtimer's share their experience or do they hate where BDSM is heading?How does the younger generation view themselves?Too many cliques in BDSM.When does common interest outweigh petty differences?In the end,cooperation will always triumph over competition. What do you mean by "where BDSM is heading"? It is heading where you individually go, isn't that true? I don't understand this obsession with cliques and communities. I really don't, unless it is to make someone feel part of something, but I don't think that's it. I think it is to try and make this more important in life than it actually is. Old vs. young? I don't know, I have been doing this since my teens and I never sought counsel; I just had relationships and learned through them and through reading. I tried the public scene for a year and it left me cold. When did this become a competition?

Hillwilliam -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 10:32:52 AM)
I got started about 1981. Like RS said, the BDSM community was largely gay. Many times, I would be at a party and as a straight male, I was a curiosity. The big difference I see now versus then is the internet. To become involved back then, you had to know someone and be introduced (I had a kinky gf). Over the next few months you would be vetted without even realizing it. When "They" decided you were OK, you would be invited to a "Party at F****'s house" and your eyes would be opened. VERY FUCKING WIDE. As a holdover from the old school, you didn't have to sub first but before you were allowed to play with any of the thuddy or stingy toys in the basement, you had to feel what they could do. (I still try new striking toys on myself first to this day). I distinctly remember thinking "How much can a mere woman hurt me" followed immediately be being sweetly reminded that FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK isn't a safeword. Now, we have the internet. Everyone has the information at their fingertips. The good side is that I feel we are more accepted because more people know of us. It is easier for someone who feels urges to find a local group instead of having to 'know someone' and learn almost by accident. The bad side is the "Instadoms, online collars, expurts, porn induced wanktards, etc" which seem to have infested our cozy little world.

ResidentSadist -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 11:11:03 AM)
Charles, I agree, how can a newbie "figure out who they are" if there is so much misinformation on the internet? Collarchat can be useful resource despite the instant communication of the internet allows a free flowing stream of errant information. When our vanguard is on their feet the truth and/or reasonable perspectives and information usually floats to the top in the long run. There are other problems like when a relatively trusted source like Wikipedia has an errant entry that says the four letter acronym BDSM has six meanings? Since when did the DS in BDSM stand for D/s dominance submission??? They have rewritten history and a newbie that can't "figure out who they are" also can't learn where we have been or what the damn BDSM acronym stands for. Our history is pretty damn short, it shouldn't be that hard to get it and the acronym right. You point out, "there was a time when being so open, wasn't the smartest thing to do" and mention the "old days" and how you had to go out of the way to meet your fellow leather enthusiast. Most of the clubs back in the 70s Detroit were backdoor clubs. They had parking in the rear and the front door was shut, some clubs had no sign out front or it was unlit. You had to know where they were and you had to walk through a Detroit back ally to get there. So not only did we have to go out of our way, but there was often some risk involved. I was never fond of parking my classic 1965 convertible Lincoln Continental in a Detroit back alley. My girl, liked one club so much she went there on her own with a gay friend of ours. Unfortunately he was a skinny little effeminate thing and didn't have the imposing stature I do. She was kidnapped from the ally and gang raped by two guys at gun point. Also, gay bashing in a Detroit back alley wasn't very pretty either. Even though I was underage, I could get into the bars, clubs and parties because my 30 yo lover was the owner/editor of the swingers magazine that they advertised in it. The first public BDSM scene I witnessed was a gay boy tied to a cross in a bar. His Master pierced his ball sack with a sharp pointed steel tube like needle the size of a drinking straw and inflated his balls. My first question was, "where can I get one of those". I recently attended Beyond Leather and the Florida Bash, great leather events full of real live old school people doing what we always did. There was some TNG around but in real life it didn't feel like BDSM got watered down, polished up, painted over with 50 shades of grey, sung about in over produced pop songs and dished out to John Q Public in a Safe Sane Consensual manner. The leather folk still had their heart, 50 Shades was running joke and we expect Hollywood will step in soon and whitewash out all the leathermen, the edge players and produce a nice marketable movie of the leather lifestyle full of happy hetros playing slap & tickle in posh discotheques where Eyes Wide Shut and 50 Shades of Grey to converge in a love story where SSC will triumph over the evil doers. I don't know if there is "loss of a community" or if BDSM is "losing it's identity" in real life like what is happening on the internet. But yes, it seems BDSM is getting a make over in the online world. If that is what it cost to change the DSM-V, it may be worth the price . . . let SSC and prudish non sense BDSM rule the net where everything is so ethereal there is no meaning to the words or acronyms and the meaning of anything is unfathomable, debatable and usually escapes words. Please God, keep all those asshats on the net and out of our events and clubs. 66 pages of "are Findom's legit" in a thread . . . LMAO. Hundreds and hundreds of leather folk in real life at two events never mentioned the word FinDom. There were no workshops about FinDomism. Sure, there were some pro Dommes there, but Findoms . . . nah. I tell ya', sometimes people take the net a little too seriously when they don't have real life exposure to counter balance the impressions they get. Speaking of real life exposure, I'd like to point out that some people here at Collarchat (and FetLife) have an awful lot of posts yet have never been to an event. Some have never even experienced BDSM in person and only have online experience, yet they are prolific posters dishing advice like they know what it's all about . . . and they don't even know what the BDSM acronym really stands for. With that thought in mind I say, to figure out who you are and what BDSM is all about, step away from your computer, go to a leather event. Not a local munch because it takes no commitment to do a munch. Go to an event that has the authors of the books we read giving workshops and people committed enough to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to congregate with our fellow leather lisfestylers. There is where you will find the leather heart of BDSM beating strongly and the people there actually know what BDSM stands for. Thank you for your reply. Best wishes, Kalon Eric quote: ORIGINAL: Charles6682 You do make some excellent points here RS. While I am glad that BDSM has become more acceptable in society over the past 10 years, I do not think it should be at the cost of the BDSM community losing it's identity. Times have changed but I have also had a thing for history. It really does help explain where we are at as people. I can certainly thank those before me for helping to "pave" the way. A lot of things in life have changed quite a bit over the past 50 years. I am sure most people in the "South" can vouch for that. Sometimes, change is for the better but it does leave unintended actions. It leaves the impression of a "loss of a community". I do like that S&M has been mostly removed from the DSM. With all these recent studies lately, people who are into BDSM are no more insane or sane than the rest of society. 1 benefit I could see from the "old days", is that someone who was really into this "Lifestyle", probably really had to go out of their way to meet like minded people. I am grateful for the internet and sites like Collarme here but it does seem these days, anyone who has read "50 shades of Grey" or seen Rihanna's "S&M" music video and now they are "pros" on the "Lifestyle". I do think it takes more than a book,song or movie to grasp this. That all said, times have changed and I see a lot of it as an improvement. I don't think the past should be forgotten because there was a time when being so open, wasn't the smartest thing to do. So, who carries the "torch" now? Without those who walked this path before, how can any "newbie" ever learn who they are. I come on Collarchat for the advice mostly. I don't even use Collarme except here and there. See if there's any new face's in my area. But beyond that, I come here in Collarchat for "lessons" taught in here. Even if I don't always agree with everybody, I do have enough respect to hear all points of views. That's the only way I can ever truly "learn". I learn from those with experience. The newbie is still trying to figure out who they are.

njlauren -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 11:14:05 AM)
Interesting thread, I have been around in one way or the other since the late 70's, have known or know people from the 'old days' of the 60's and 70's, and I think the answer is that like anything else, BD/SM grows and changes, and it isn't a bad thing. Old timers loved the 'coziness' of it to use someone else's phrase, when it was very fringe and very exclusive, and of course, back then, there also was the thrill of being outlaw, of being whispered about and so forth, and the practices in many ways could be really over the top (I never got to the mineshaft, but I had friends of mine in college who went there in its glory years....and all I can say is 'holy shit')...or places like Hellfire in NYC... NYC went pansexual a bit more early, TES was around since the early 70's and as far as I know, it always was pansexual, the founders were straight. There also were mixed S/M clubs by the late 70's, places like Hellfire and others...... The cliques and such were there a long time ago, it has nothing to do with older or younger, it was true back then, too, there were those into the whole leather protocol who saw others as usurpers,some of the gay leather men saw it broadening out as 'cheapening' their experience, then there was the whole lifestyle versus bedroom BD/SM arguments, how if you didn't 'live it', it wasn't real and the list went on, that is human nature, and I doubt that has changed. The difference today is the community (well, okay, the grouping, community implies everyone buys into it) has broadened. As someone said, back in the day to get involved you had to meet people to find things, other then the occassional whispered about book or porn magazines, there wasn't a lot of information, and it could be hard to find it unless you lived near cities and such with groups like TES or later, Black Rose (TES used to advertise its meetings in the village voice, so it could be found). With the internet the game changed, information, both good and bad, is out there as with everything else (I once ran into a couple who wanted to try a female led marriage kind of thing, and they were both really upset, and when I asked them why, they had found some site run by some twat called Elsie Something, who had all these rules that people wanting FLM had to follow, that included of course that the wife would have other loves and the husband/sub couldn't say anything about it, and it was sad, cause both of them didn't want that.....they brightened up a bit when I told them it wouldn't surprise me is said site was written by some wanky male sub wannabe writing his fantasy as fact, and that only they could define their relationship....they cheered right up, and I told them it is always wise to listen to advice, and filter it through the bullshit filter, saves a lot of angst...the net, ya gotta love it), so it is drawing a lot more people. I am not so sure that BD/SM will become 'blurred' into the line of 'normal vanilla sex', at least not in the way that RS was saying. There already are people who play 'BD/SM games', like the women who read 50 shades of green aka "show me the money", who use it to spice up vanilla sex, so hubby ties her up and tickles her or does whatever, it adds spice to their lovemaking but they probably don't identify as top/bottom, Dom/Sub, it is simply a game (which is cool, fuck if I am going to judge that). I think even with 'bedroom only people' there will be divisions with some where it is 'spice' and others where it has deeper meaning, if only in the bedroom..and so forth. However, I think there will always be people who associate this with who they are, what they are, and are going to be divided like that. I don't think munch's, S/M groups, workshops, leather conferences and so forth are going to go away, I think they will exist and may end up with a lot more people interested in them, if anything, they may get more active. I think because of the internet that the size of the 'play at home, this stays at home' part of the community will grow faster, but that is fine, too. I think they may be a bit less exclusive then they once were, will be a lot more open, have a wider range of characters, and types, but I think it will always be there because there will always be people who want 'real community', meet people, socialize, play together, and learn. As far as the virtual world, with virtual dom/mes collaring virtual subs, and so forth, if that floats there boat, to be honest, cool, doesn't do anything for me, but if they find fulfillment in it, then it isn't a bad thing IMO. The only real difference I think is that people wont have to live in fear as much going down the road, with variances. About 15 years ago a couple in upstate NY had their children taken away from them, lost their jobs, and so forth, simply because some friend with a beef stole a tape of them playing and gave it to the authorities, there was no indication the couple did anything with the children, they were otherwise well respected people, if that happened today the cops and ACS would be in deep, deep shit, the ACLU and other rights groups would bury the fuckers that did this.....not true all over the country, of course, and it will take time, but the thing about the younger generations, even in the less enlightened portions of this country, they have knowledge we never did and when it comes to sex and sexuality, they don't care about what others are doing, it is one of the prime reasons the GOP is having trouble with young people, when polled about why they distrust the GOP, something like 70% said it was because of their backward view of social issues like sex and gays, and that is telling (and it was surprisingly close all over the country). Know what I find to be neat about the younger people I run into? They actually are still thrilled by all this, eager to learn, have enthusiasm, that us old farts once had:)

OsideGirl -> RE: BDSM: Cultural Shift (6/17/2013 11:28:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 What do you mean by "where BDSM is heading"? It is heading where you individually go, isn't that true? I don't understand this obsession with cliques and communities. I really don't, unless it is to make someone feel part of something, but I don't think that's it. I think it is to try and make this more important in life than it actually is. I agree with this. Over all, I'm not seeing cultural changes within the community. What I am seeing: 1) A younger generation that expects instant gratification. They expect everything to get handed to them rather than putting in the effort. I blame the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. But, that's not a BDSM D/s thing, it's societal thing. 2) The proliferation of porn has painted an unrealistic view of WWITWD, which influences the behavior of new people coming in, regardless of their age.

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