RE: Guns (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Guns


I own a gun
  48% (36)
I don't own a gun
  16% (12)
I think law abiding citizens should be allowed to own a gun
  24% (18)
I don't think law abiding citizens should be allowed to own a gun
  10% (8)


Total Votes : 74
(last vote on : 11/3/2006 4:09:34 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


leatherorlace -> RE: Guns (6/30/2006 11:42:48 PM)

I regret that, I didn't beg your permission to enter the thread. How dastardly of Me.
M. Gentry
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hmmmm? You barge in on a discussion that started seemingly eons ago and accuse me of throwing sand in your eyes? Not at all, no no no. Being playful is a pastime, a little like whining on discussion boards that other posters aren't serious enough.

Each to their own, if I annoy you, bar me. Best wishes.




ScooterTrash -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 4:50:17 AM)

Wow...talk about a thread that takes different paths.
 
As to the death penalty..Emperor or others in the legal profession are privy to far more statistics about wrongful convictions than I, due to their profession, but I also think most will attest that our judicial system does allow a multitude of options as far as the appellate process goes. No, perhaps the outcome is not always in favor of the innocent, but I do think as a society we have built in as many checks and balances as humanly possible. If the conviction is racially biased however, so will be the appeal process, so perhaps some modification of the appeal process is needed to attempt to take this out of the equation. That all being said however, the appeal process is somewhat overkill at times as well (regarding murder convictions). If the guilty party is positively guilty, such as where credible eye witnesses were present and there is no doubt that the convicted party is guilty, or if they confess (where an appeal is automatic?) why is there an appeal process at all? The victim did not have an option to appeal, why is it that the compassionate populous believes that the murderer should have more rights than the victim? Is it cruel or unusual to execute someone? Not likely by the standard methods in use today, they are quick and efficient. If we were to string them up and hack off a limb a day, perhaps, but speedy methods deemed appropriate by today’s standard seem fairly humane, compared to many options. In all actuality, having the execution match the crime would seem fairer, irregardless of what that may entail. That might have a more deterrent effect than a merciful execution.
 
As for all who feel that guns are such a dangerous and bad thing, they are actually fairly sublime compared to ancient instruments of death. I somehow imagine that a potential burglar in my home would be quite relieved if I chose a gun to use as my defense tool, versus my available options. I have a fairly vast collection of medieval type weapons as well and these are just downright scary if you imagine being on the receiving end of them. I have to honestly believe that being shot would be a much better choice than being mauled by a mace, tenderized by a 4 ball flail or hacked into bits by a 4 foot sword. Weapons are weapons; they have been around since the beginning of mankind and are not going away any time soon. The best option still is to educate proper use and safety, not legislate their legality, because it really is true that if you make (insert your weapon of choice here) illegal, only the potential criminals will possess them.




LaTigresse -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 5:42:06 AM)

Well well well...........this thread has taken a few twists and turns since I last visited.

The truth of the matter is that there will always be those that oppose guns of any sort and there will be those sane individuals that re strongly opposed to losing their rights to having them. Many of us break out cases, laws, historic example, psychological examples......yada yada yada.........to support our different points of view. Neither side is going to sway the other, not ever. Probably the only time that would be the case is if an individual suffered the loss of a loved one and the circumstances were such to change their point of view. I pray that does not happen to anyone that is participating here.

The death penalty has good and bad points. I pray no one I love is ever wrongfully accused yet I would happily torture then kill Roger Bentley and his brother.
I do not believe dying is the worse thing that can happen, in some cases living is far far worse. To throw a whole new topic into the twist........I wonder if those that oppose the death penalty also oppose a persons "right to die". Just a musing on my part.
We try and argue subjects that are almost all in the "gray zones" with black and white arguments. Would that it was as simple as we attempt to make it. There is no easy answer and those that try to make it so are the ones that concern me the most.




JohnWarren -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 6:23:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Lorelei, I could just about hug you from giving us a moderate perspective on an otherwise inciendiary debate. Thank you.

PS: where were you when we needed you ;-p ?


I somehow managed to miss this thread, though I have said the same thing in threads past.  Better late than never, I guess.  Thanks for the hug... I am sure to need it when others here begin firing their legal weapons at me.

<takes cover>


The "moderate" didn't last long did it? 




kittinSol -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 6:40:13 AM)

Oh for godssake, Johnny.

[8|]




MistressLorelei -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 7:19:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Lorelei, I could just about hug you from giving us a moderate perspective on an otherwise inciendiary debate. Thank you.

PS: where were you when we needed you ;-p ?


I somehow managed to miss this thread, though I have said the same thing in threads past.  Better late than never, I guess.  Thanks for the hug... I am sure to need it when others here begin firing their legal weapons at me.

<takes cover>


The "moderate" didn't last long did it? 


My views on politics in general aren't often considered 'moderate', but I think my views on gun ownership are fair.  I think it's fair to give gun rights to those who want to own them, but I don't understand why many who want to own them, think it's fair to own them without any restriction. 

We learn how to get a car before getting a license to drive; register our vehicles; I have no problem with women waiting a short period before having an abortion;  we get background checks to get jobs, and loans; pharmacies put safetey caps on medication that could harm a child if he gets a hold of it,  many gun owners do a better job of keeping candy and medication locked away and out of the hands of our children in the home, than they do their guns .... why is a gun so sacred?  If it's a tool used to protect yourselves, why not protect the innocent people (often a friend or family member) who a firearm could potentially harm as well?




JohnWarren -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 8:00:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei


I somehow managed to miss this thread, though I have said the same thing in threads past.  Better late than never, I guess.  Thanks for the hug... I am sure to need it when others here begin firing their legal weapons at me.

<takes cover>


The "moderate" didn't last long did it? 


My views on politics in general aren't often considered 'moderate', but I think my views on gun ownership are fair. 


By your own statement above you feel that people who own guns will use deadly force in a intellectual debate.

It's amazing how fast the veneer comes off.

plonk




MistressLorelei -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 9:50:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei


I somehow managed to miss this thread, though I have said the same thing in threads past.  Better late than never, I guess.  Thanks for the hug... I am sure to need it when others here begin firing their legal weapons at me.

<takes cover>


The "moderate" didn't last long did it? 


My views on politics in general aren't often considered 'moderate', but I think my views on gun ownership are fair. 


By your own statement above you feel that people who own guns will use deadly force in a intellectual debate.

It's amazing how fast the veneer comes off.

plonk


John,

I enjoy your posts, and I do believe that you are capable of recognizing a tongue-in-cheek remark when you see it.  Deadly force in a message board?  Who the heck can shoot me through a computer screen even if (which I, of course don't) I thought they were going to take aim.

I was making a lighthearted remark to a lighthearted 'hug' comment made to me by another member.... relax, I didn't try to steal your gun!




Emperor1956 -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 10:04:32 AM)

This thread is probably getting too riled up to do much good, but...here goes.

ScooterTrash said (in a temperate and thoughtful post):
quote:

  As to the death penalty..Emperor or others in the legal profession are privy to far more statistics about wrongful convictions than I, due to their profession, but I also think most will attest that our judicial system does allow a multitude of options as far as the appellate process goes. No, perhaps the outcome is not always in favor of the innocent, but I do think as a society we have built in as many checks and balances as humanly possible. If the conviction is racially biased however, so will be the appeal process, so perhaps some modification of the appeal process is needed to attempt to take this out of the equation. That all being said however, the appeal process is somewhat overkill at times as well (regarding murder convictions). If the guilty party is positively guilty, such as where credible eye witnesses were present and there is no doubt that the convicted party is guilty, or if they confess (where an appeal is automatic?) why is there an appeal process at all? The victim did not have an option to appeal, why is it that the compassionate populous believes that the murderer should have more rights than the victim? Is it cruel or unusual to execute someone? Not likely by the standard methods in use today, they are quick and efficient. If we were to string them up and hack off a limb a day, perhaps, but speedy methods deemed appropriate by today’s standard seem fairly humane, compared to many options. In all actuality, having the execution match the crime would seem fairer, irregardless of what that may entail. That might have a more deterrent effect than a merciful execution.



The problem Scooter is that with the advent of DNA matching (which is NOT flawless, but it does a pretty damn good job of exonerating people by showing they were not the "depositors" of trace at a crime scene) we learn how badly our system does in cases of eyewitness and circumstantial testimony.  If we had some better way, I'd be with you:  Assess the probability of guilt, and when it is accurately "beyond a reasonable doubt", convict.  If execution is appropriate, then -- with the necessary safeguards of due process (which will take some time, although I agree 20 years of appeals is ludicrous) -- execute.  But we just don't get the conviction right at the beginning.

The sad truth is that human beings make LOUSY witnesses:  We forget, we fabricate, we don't see things plainly put in front of our noses and we misunderstand, misread, mishear and mis-see things.  We are biased, we are racists, we love some irrationally and hate others with equal irrationality.  All this means we are LOUSY at recounting and assessing "fact".  The studies on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony are legion.  So we have nearly 100 convicted murderers released in the past 10 years because DNA evidence exonerates them.  We have 100s more waiting for case review. 

For that reason alone, I can't support the death penalty in 2006 AS WE APPLY IT.  Get me a more certain system of justice, I have no problem with execution of appropriate miscreants.

E.




Emperor1956 -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 10:30:02 AM)

On guns:  I may be somewhat of an anomaly (that's ok, I've been called worse).  I am a gun owner and gun user, who also strongly advocates for the sort of restrictions that Lorelei and others talk about.  In order to avoid having guns wind up in illegal hands, and to promote gun safety, what is wrong with (for example) waiting periods, restrictions on acquisition (does any private citizen REALLY need to acquire more than 5 guns a month?), and mandatory training akin to what we require for a drivers' license?  All are acceptable to me.

The key issues on gun control that people forget are two.  Scooter talks about how things were worse in the old pre-gun days.  Well, on a 1 on 1 basis, maybe, but there are two key issues about guns that Scooter (and others) ignore, and to ignore these truths is to miss the point of rational gun control advocacy:

1.  GUNS ARE EASY TO USE.  Ever lift a 16th C. broad sword?  Ever hold a flail?  It takes strength and dexterity to wield that sort of weapon, and in fact the odds are pretty good that an inexperienced assailant with a sword will lop off his own appendage before he gets to yours.  A gun, however, at base takes virtually no skill to operate.  I'm not talking about to use one WELL.  I'm not talking about 500 yard sniper training.  I mean anyone, from my 9 year old neighbor to my 73 year old mother, can take a .25 cal. semi-auto with a tip up barrel, load it with one round, cock it, and make a hole in something or someone with not a whit of experience and a bit of training.  After about 5 minutes of training, said child or aging, somewhat demented parent can load the clip and happily blast away at any rabbit, intruder, or nurses' aide trying to provide services.   Remember the term used in the American West for the .45 cal revolver?  Not "peacemaker"...but "equalizer".

2.  GUNS CAUSE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.  Knives, swords, maces, flails are all lethal, but only if the assailant gets in close, and has a fair amount of time.  Guns, on the other hand, allow for serious lethal conduct from a distance, in a blink of an eye. 

A bit of recent medical history:  Prior to the mid 1980s in the United States, gunshot wounds (GSW) were usually treated at emergency rooms through isolation of the wound area, removal of the bullet, compression and rest, all while keeping the patient out of shock and replacing lost blood if necessary.  Most wounds were single shot, caused by a .38 cal revolver (or a smaller cal.)  and few were fatal. 

Then in the mid 1980s the cheap multi-round semiautomatic pistol became readily available in the United States, the "flagship" of which was the 9mm semiauto handgun with a magazine of 7 to 13 rounds.  Suddenly American trauma centers were seeing a new type of GSW victim -- multiple GSWs in various body parts created by large, high impact rounds.  These patients went into shock rapidly and died -- while the surgeon was working on the belly wound, for instance, the GSW victim bled out through the severed thigh artery and/or went into shock from the face wound.  Removal of the bullets was impossible -- people died too fast.  The technology of medicine was inadequate, and new techniques, pioneered by Dr. C. William Schwab of Philadelphia among others, had to be created.  Drawing on some lessons from Vietnam battlefield medicine, modern trauma surgeons reinvented the way we attempt to save gsw victims.  But the inescapable fact is that modern easy to use rapid-fire handguns cause much more serious wounds than almost any other weapon in history.

That's why I don't mind a waiting period, or registration.

E.




Wulfchyld -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 10:48:58 AM)

Very good points Emperor. I have made a few points about nasty little critters roaming around where I live and the anti-gun folk seemed to turn a blind eye to them. I have a panther that has eaten 4 cats and 6 dogs and if it had a chance it would get one of my unmentionables. I have gotten a few shots at it, but as you know Panthers are clever and I am not physically capable, yet, to go out and hunt him down and eliminate the problem. Now the Panther is not the least of my worries, I have vipers, coyote's, and a rouge bear (that hasn’t came to the house but has been on the property) as well.




MistressLorelei -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 10:55:40 AM)

Emperor1956....

We don't share a fondness for owning guns, but I respect your right to have one, and admire your desire to see that the guns you wish to own, are acquired in a way which can prevent their illegal use... just in case (as we have many instances where 'just in case' measures would have saved lives).

I'm impressed... I like when that happens.




Emperor1956 -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 9:21:44 PM)

MistressLorelei, thank you.  I should add that my shotguns are stored broken down, in locked cases, with the shot shells stored in an ammunition shed outside the house.  As my competition shotguns are some of the most valuable things I own, I'm more worried about them being stolen as valuables than I am using them to defend my home.  My handgun is stored safely, with a trigger lock, in a place where only I'm likely to find it should I need it.  I have never ever stored a loaded, unlocked weapon.  I think that's folly.

E.

(OH and if anyone thinks they'll be clever and figure out who I am and come visit to "see" my valuables -- I keep them right behind the loaded Rottweiller.  He's friendly.  Uh huh...come on...)




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 10:07:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

1.  GUNS ARE EASY TO USE.  Ever lift a 16th C. broad sword?  Ever hold a flail?  It takes strength and dexterity to wield that sort of weapon, and in fact the odds are pretty good that an inexperienced assailant with a sword will lop off his own appendage before he gets to yours.  A gun, however, at base takes virtually no skill to operate.  I'm not talking about to use one WELL. 


Well.. yes... I HAVE used a broad sword.  And a Gladius, Short Sword, Rapier, and Claymore which was longer than I am tall.  (Not Comfortably on the Claymore, mind you - but I Have weilded one.) And a flail.  And a Mace.  And various forms of Ballista and Trebuchets.  I've also MADE 16th century style swords.  I spent 6 years working part time at the apprentice level in a knife making business - pounding hot metal, making forge welded damascus, beating it into knife and sword blades, and selling them.  At the same time, I was involved in a medieval history group, learning how to fight with them, make armor, and other such tidbits of fun.

quote:


2.  GUNS CAUSE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.  Knives, swords, maces, flails are all lethal, but only if the assailant gets in close, and has a fair amount of time.  Guns, on the other hand, allow for serious lethal conduct from a distance, in a blink of an eye. 


Have you ever been HIT by a Mace, Flail, or (blunted/practice) Broad Sword?  They BREAK BONES - quickly - if your opponent doesn't pull their strikes or you are inadequately padded.  It doesn't take a significant amount of time to do so.  It doesn't even take any sort of significant skill to do so.  (Yes, I Have been hit by various of said weapons, during the same time period that I was learning to make and use them.  I was fortunate enough to avoid serious injury.  I know others who weren't so fortunate.)




Vendaval -> RE: Guns (7/1/2006 11:16:42 PM)

Just a bit of an observation here and My own view, specific
to living in the USA.  I notice a big difference on the attitude
towards gun policy between people living in large metropolitan
areas and people living in rural areas.
 
The big cities have the inevitable triumvirate of gangs, drugs
and guns.  Far too often, civilians are hurt and killed simply
because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
(This is not the thread to discuss the similarities between the
  Prohibition Era and gangster violence and the War on Drug
  and DEA policies of today.  Just remember, the USA bears
  the dubious distinction of being the only country in the world
  to have a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms!)
 
In rural areas, the local folks almost always have shotguns,
hunting rifles and handguns.  As a general rule, the adults in the households
teach the youngsters how to safely handle firearms
and use them for hunting and to scare off predators, kill snakes,
rabid animals, etc.
 
 
YMMV,
 
 
Vendaval
 
 




Emperor1956 -> RE: Guns (7/2/2006 12:38:08 AM)

georgiapeach:  Ok, so you are the queen of all edged weapons.  We will all concede that.  In fact your comment helps prove my point, as you need a lot of training to make and use the edged weapons you boast about.

Does this have anything to do with my post?  The fact remains that a broken arm, or rib, etc. from a fight with those weapons is nothing compared to taking several 9mm slugs in various organs.  you may hurt from the sword/knife fight, you may limp, but you heal.  you DIE from the GSW.

E




ScooterTrash -> RE: Guns (7/2/2006 4:09:40 AM)

Nodz, I do tend to agree, humans are quite capable of accidentally "seeing" things that didn't happen, almost a mob mentality when something traumatic happens. In some cases however, where there are several witnesses as well as a confession, the "beyond reasonable doubt" is cut and dry and the appeal should be disallowed...I regret, that to protect the cases where this isn't so, the system has to be somewhat cushy and allow for a verification process. Although in 2006 we are perhaps not certain of guilt 100% of the time, I do think with the advent of DNA testing we are getting closer. Will we ever get to the point where is is a certainty? Probably not, no more so than we will ever get the point where our fellow human being doesn't commit a violent crime in the first place. I'm not certain what the answer is, but spending literally thousands of dollars keeping someone caged up, versus putting the problem to rest (permanently) will always be a debated topic...again, that as well is human nature. We are all somewhat barbaric and at the same time sympathetic, particularly when it comes to taking away something that most regard as valuable, such as a human life. But when it hits home, we are even more reactive and will want justice applied to the extent that our own concious will allow. I have some compassion for most all of humanity, but if someone kills a member of my family, I want them killed back...the uncertainty of the "process" will likely not sway me in a case such as that. There is no real answer here of what is right and what is wrong...as usual, it just opinions...and that's not all bad either, it makes us question what we do as a society, as well we should.




ScooterTrash -> RE: Guns (7/2/2006 4:27:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956


1.  GUNS ARE EASY TO USE.  Ever lift a 16th C. broad sword?  Ever hold a flail?  It takes strength and dexterity to wield that sort of weapon, and in fact the odds are pretty good that an inexperienced assailant with a sword will lop off his own appendage before he gets to yours.  A gun, however, at base takes virtually no skill to operate.  I'm not talking about to use one WELL.  I'm not talking about 500 yard sniper training.  I mean anyone, from my 9 year old neighbor to my 73 year old mother, can take a .25 cal. semi-auto with a tip up barrel, load it with one round, cock it, and make a hole in something or someone with not a whit of experience and a bit of training.  After about 5 minutes of training, said child or aging, somewhat demented parent can load the clip and happily blast away at any rabbit, intruder, or nurses' aide trying to provide services.   Remember the term used in the American West for the .45 cal revolver?  Not "peacemaker"...but "equalizer".

2.  GUNS CAUSE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.  Knives, swords, maces, flails are all lethal, but only if the assailant gets in close, and has a fair amount of time.  Guns, on the other hand, allow for serious lethal conduct from a distance, in a blink of an eye. 

......That's why I don't mind a waiting period, or registration.

E.

Yes (as to the broadsword), and no kidding. You would definitely have to have some training and/or a lot of practice to be efficient at using any of the primitive weapons of old without hacking or bludgeoning yourself to death in the process. I would like to think I'm fairly decent with a flail, but then again I haven't had to use it in combat and have no intention of trying to (doesn't even sound appealing to me). You are very correct that firearms do not necessitate the same training to kill...a shame actually. So we are in agreement (I think) that although guns should not be banned completely, that proper use and safety training as well as waiting period are fine with me. I would like to think that the majority of us gun "collectors", "hunters" and "sportsmen", do in fact know how to properly use our weapons. It's the rest of the "buy and bang" public that is an issue and is cause for concern. Sort of a double edged sword (no pun intended)...how do you protect the right to bear arms while still regulating it enough to keep them out of the hands of those who would use them for wrongful purposes, or use (or possess) them unsafely. Again..just a subject for debate as I doubt there is an answer to satisfy everyone.  




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