RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 5:10:42 PM)



quote:

We don't have a problem with the Muslim religion, we have a problem *in* the muslim religion. Perhaps that sums it up. I think your post is fairly accurate Aswad, although with my study of history I am not as sanguine as you about the ease of assimilation.


quote:

It's not tied to Islam at all. We have the same problem with Somali Christians as with Somali Muslims, for instance.


I wasn't talking about your problem with somali's. Here we have had issues with somali muslims being recruited to fight jihand. And considering that other countries have had the same problem (google londonistan, hyde park area of london for the truly alarming number of home grown jihadis), if you haven't had the problem, I suggest it is a fortunate coincidence rather than reliable indicator of things going forward.

And I disagree - it is absolutely kosher to pick out problematic countries. I am so freakin' tired of screening grand ma because saudi arabians crashed planes into the WT Center.



MrBukani -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 5:55:15 PM)

oh I forgot one,[:D]

Dutchies live all over the world and I rarely hear any of them complain they have trouble integrating.
Why?[:D]
But we need programs to integrate foreigners?
[:'(]zum kotzen.[:D]








PeonForHer -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 6:18:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
And I've seen that posters got it up to the point I wanted it.


More like posters got it up to the point they wanted it - and needed it. [;)]



YN -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 8:11:45 PM)

James I was Catholic? Do tell. What was that Gunpowder plot about then?



Lucylastic -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 9:44:24 PM)

LOL maybe you need to really get your basic history correct....



jlf1961 -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 9:50:32 PM)

The gunpowder plot was the conspiracy that had Guy Fawkes placing a charge of gunpowder under parliment in london.

This fawkes dude was an anarchist.

It was also the code name for me, Greg Conder, Joey Light, Danny Clairmont and a couple of others to drop M-80's down all the toilets in all the boys bathrooms in highschool as a diversion to allow us to hide a video camera in the girls showers in the gym.



Edwynn -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 10:19:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Edwynn........ Ignore that facts, carry on with the ignorance. I tried to set you straight and this is the best you can do ?

Nothing in your post above refutes my points, or indeed changes history.



Read the title of the OP's post. Carefully.

I never said that Egypt was a British colony. I wasn't speaking about colonization. I included Egypt in the discussion of colonialism, per the OP.

OED; "colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically."

Egypt most certainly qualifies in this instance. We could quibble about Britain not sending a bunch of real estate agents to Egypt to entice British citizens to move there, but there were certainly enough Englanders and Australians and other Commonwealthers invested in the country to impose both political and economic rule to qualify.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Not every colony was founded in this way though. Much of the British Empire was founded on trade. Indeed, the US revolution was fought mainly by those with a European heritage.


"Trade" implies something at least roughly equal in the exchange. The British and Dutch and French various "East India Companies" had nothing of the sort in mind. Nor did the British and Dutch and French and US ventures in the ME have any such notion in mind.


Put a sock in it unless you have anything actually useful to contribute to discussion of the OP, aside from incessant carping over irrelevancies conjured by your intentional contortions of what others say.






Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 11:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Just to add: that sentence has left me reeling. WTF? Your population increased by a sixth?


A fifth, actually.

So, yeah, there's a definite WTF-element, one that's got nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with politicians failing to realize that adding a fifth to a population, from any source, is an undertaking that requires something more than a letter to Santa in order to work out well, and doubly so when the preexisting population is known for its xenophobia (in social terms, it's kind of irrelevant which "side" causes a problem, since that society faces a problem as a consequence of the political decisions, regardless).

We have a Labor Party problem, not a Muslim problem. [:D]

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Edwynn -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 11:22:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Edwynn........ Ignore that facts, carry on with the ignorance. I tried to set you straight and this is the best you can do ?

Nothing in your post above refutes my points, or indeed changes history.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Egypt was never a British Colony.



Read the title of the OP's post. Carefully.

I never said that Egypt was a British colony. I wasn't speaking about colonization. I included Egypt in the discussion of colonialism, per the OP. It's not that I "ignore that facts" (sic), it's that you ignore simple comprehension skills. Not to mention basic grammar or punctuation.

OED; "colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically."

Egypt most certainly qualifies in this instance. We could quibble about Britain not sending a bunch of real estate agents to Egypt to entice British citizens to move there, but there were certainly enough Englanders and Australians and other Commonwealthers invested in the country to impose both political and economic rule to qualify.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Not every colony was founded in this way though. Much of the British Empire was founded on trade. Indeed, the US revolution was fought mainly by those with a European heritage.


"Trade" implies something at least roughly equal in the exchange. The British and Dutch and French various "East India Companies" had nothing of the sort in mind. Nor did the British and Dutch and French and US ventures in the ME have any such notion in mind. "Exploiting it economically" would be the key feature here in relevance to the OED definition of colonialism.


Put a sock in it unless you have anything actually useful to contribute to discussion of the OP, aside from incessant carping over irrelevancies conjured by your intentional contortions of what others say.



PS

Apologies to others here for the quasi-double post, but I couldn't edit the earlier post to accommodate proper clarification. I had other immediate calls to attention in the brief time that the site allows for editing.








Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/27/2013 11:35:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And I disagree - it is absolutely kosher to pick out problematic countries.


In an ideal world, perhaps.

In the real world, the facts are that if you take that approach in Norwegian politics or public discourse, you will be hit with a stamp saying "Breivik-sympathizer" and that's curtains in terms of getting anywhere. Hence, me saying it's not kosher, in the sense of not accepted in polite company. Ironically, this is exactly the sort of polarizing and bridge burning effect the guy was going for with his attacks, closing off discourse as a recourse for people that object to current policies, as I elaborated on back when the attacks were current news.

Sad, as cutting down on the rate of asylum immigration from certain countries for a while would probably be a good idea for everyone.

Including the ones we actually do take in.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



PeonForHer -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 12:41:30 AM)

quote:

A fifth, actually


Er . . . yeah. Fractions always gave me headaches. [;)]



YN -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 2:02:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

LOL maybe you need to really get your basic history correct....



I I think I have it correct, but see certain English think James I was Catholic.

quote:

The Gunpowder Plot of 1605, in earlier centuries often called the Gunpowder Treason Plot or the Jesuit Treason, was a failed assassination attempt against King James I of England and VI of Scotland by a group of provincial English Catholics led by Robert Catesby.

The plan was to blow up the House of Lords during the State Opening of England's Parliament on 5 November 1605, as the prelude to a popular revolt in the Midlands during which James's nine-year-old daughter, Princess Elizabeth, was to be installed as the Catholic head of state. Catesby may have embarked on the scheme after hopes of securing greater religious tolerance under King James had faded, leaving many English Catholics disappointed. His fellow plotters were John Wright, Thomas Wintour, Thomas Percy, Guy Fawkes, Robert Keyes, Thomas Bates, Robert Wintour, Christopher Wright, John Grant, Ambrose Rookwood, Sir Everard Digby and Francis Tresham. Fawkes, who had 10 years of military experience fighting in the Spanish Netherlands in suppression of the Dutch Revolt, was given charge of the explosives.
- wiki Gunpowder Plot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

This fawkes dude was an anarchist.




Doesn't sound like the handiwork of anarchists.



YN -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 2:10:27 AM)

English are perfect people and those tales claiming they had an empire or engaged in any unsavory international conduct such as slavery, imperialism, etc. are false slanders spread by malicious criminals. Just ask a Tory.



Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 2:34:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And I disagree - it is absolutely kosher to pick out problematic countries.


In an ideal world, perhaps.

In the real world, the facts are that if you take that approach in Norwegian politics or public discourse, you will be hit with a stamp saying "Breivik-sympathizer" and that's curtains in terms of getting anywhere. Hence, me saying it's not kosher, in the sense of not accepted in polite company. Ironically, this is exactly the sort of polarizing and bridge burning effect the guy was going for with his attacks, closing off discourse as a recourse for people that object to current policies, as I elaborated on back when the attacks were current news.

Sad, as cutting down on the rate of asylum immigration from certain countries for a while would probably be a good idea for everyone.

Including the ones we actually do take in.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Agreed. But this is one of my whole points entire. Modern civilization depends on a certain amount of trust. If you don't believe that - then you don't understand a bank run.

Fundamentalist muslims attack tourists in egypt - or pakistan at k2. These countries are heavily dependent on tourist revenue. The terror attacks drive away tourists - the economy worsens. The teeming poverty is ripe breeding grounds for further terror action.

Or take what happened to the United States - for the price of a couple of airline tickets we are now costing our economy and our citizens tens of billions of dollars in security fees and lost time.

Responsible nations have a motive to encourage dialog. Fundamentalists... don't, until such a bloodbath occurs that even the fundamentalists are set back on their heels.

Fundamentally this happened for 25 years when they lost the Yom Kippur (and other) wars.... That lesson has been forgotten.



Politesub53 -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 4:04:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

James I was Catholic? Do tell. What was that Gunpowder plot about then?



You just continue to jump in with both feet. The gunpowder plot was nothing to do with Irish Catholics.

You still havent posted your bogus proclomation either.

I shall be polite in this post and just wait for you to catch up.



Politesub53 -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 4:22:00 AM)

quote:

Edwynn:

Egypt most certainly qualifies in this instance. We could quibble about Britain not sending a bunch of real estate agents to Egypt to entice British citizens to move there, but there were certainly enough Englanders and Australians and other Commonwealthers invested in the country to impose both political and economic rule to qualify.


So if Egypt sold its shares in the Suez project to Britain, then we send in troops to protect the canal, that makes Egypt a colony.....

[8|]



Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 5:46:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Er . . . yeah. Fractions always gave me headaches. [;)]


Me, too. Then I quit listening to the teacher and started reading math instead, and the headaches went away. [:D]

IWYW,
— Aswad.




PeonForHer -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 5:51:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Er . . . yeah. Fractions always gave me headaches. [;)]


Me, too. Then I quit listening to the teacher and started reading math instead, and the headaches went away. [:D]

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Yep. That's how learned maths, myself. It didn't work till I no longer had a teacher other than myself. Failed the exam first time, passed it four months later, with an A, and after the teaching was out of my head. But I still avoided the 'fractions' questions. [;)]



PeonForHer -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 5:53:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

Edwynn:

Egypt most certainly qualifies in this instance. We could quibble about Britain not sending a bunch of real estate agents to Egypt to entice British citizens to move there, but there were certainly enough Englanders and Australians and other Commonwealthers invested in the country to impose both political and economic rule to qualify.


So if Egypt sold its shares in the Suez project to Britain, then we send in troops to protect the canal, that makes Egypt a colony.....

[8|]


We can't go anywhere on this, it seems to me, unless we distinguish between 'colonialism' and 'neocolonialism'. Egypt might - I say might - be an early example of the latter.



Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/28/2013 6:16:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Modern civilization depends on a certain amount of trust.


I know. I've written about that in the past, particularly in the Gorean section of the board. It's the most offensive element of surveillance society: undermining the very foundation on which every viable civilization is built, namely that of trust. If you can't extend some modicum of trust to me, then you shouldn't seek to coexist in a society with me, and vice versa.

This, incidentally, is not limited to modern civilizations. Indeed, it's even clearer in premodern civilization how crucial a certain level of trust is. Without it, we stand alone, lack the very thing that has allowed us to go from being hairless apes to splitting the atom and having virtually every human being in the West capable of accomplishing more than any other animal around.

quote:

Responsible nations have a motive to encourage dialog. Fundamentalists... don't, until such a bloodbath occurs that even the fundamentalists are set back on their heels.


No, enlightened individuals have a motive to encourage dialogue, and the means to realize they do. Nations, on the other hand, tend to collectively miss the point, sinking to the lowest common denominator as regards enlightenment. The same applies to most groups, I suppose. Anyway, the dialogue is not being encouraged up here in Norway, but rather quelled in all channels, ever since the attack on Oslo and Utøya, and you'll have a hard time arguing that we're not one of the more responsible nations out there.

Motive isn't the issue. Seeing is.

Fundamentalism exists in all societies, and it's generally harder to curb it when socioeconomic conditions are poor, or education is limited. In the West, the watchword is "zero tolerance policy", our word for fundamentalist policies which agree with us. With that in mind, it's not hard to see just how common the underlying disease is, even here, where there are fewer and milder symptoms of it, a difference attributable to education and finances. To improve conditions in the Middle East, investing in the region and encouraging education are two great measures. Kicking ass is not (and we've a poor track record with that, too, anyway).

IWYW,
— Aswad.




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