RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'.

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:20:04 AM)
Some of you need to grasp some simple concepts. Multinational corps dont care about the health of the US, so it isnt important if the oil comes here. Walmarts bysiness model is based on exporting us jobs to china and their next wave of orofits will be from chinese consumers made wealthy on the destruction of our economy. Your picture of the game we are pawns in is WAY too small.

Rule -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:23:28 AM)
Tsk, tsk.

YN -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:27:36 AM)
So it bothers you the Chinese treat the United States the way the United States and Europeans have treated the rest of the world for centuries? You are the among those here justifying imperialism, so you should not complain about being paid in your own coins.

Real0ne -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:38:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Thanks for the kudos. I don't know why you said I made a misrepresentation about the process of colonization in the Middle East. I made NO representations about the process of colonization there, at all. The original poster said all colonizers were evil. The west is terrible. The sky is falling! Why can't you recognize how evil you are etc etc. I said that colonization is one data point in a spectrum of statecraft for both the dominant and subdominant culture. And it is. Certainlly cultures can (and have) resisted to the death before - but this is not actually to what I was referring. Areas become colonies (or client states) voluntarily as well. For example the US (and britain, to some extent) set up the hashemites as kings in Saudia Arabia and Jordan. And while our influence with these client states is fading - nonetheless this has been a profitable for both countries. As I said, client states, colonies, allies (like the us/britain) - all are just points on the continuum of statecraft where states try to effect results to the benefits of their nations. and what is a state for 100? nothing more than an association of businesses for profit, mostly their own, who eventually force all inhabitants to into their religion worshiping the almighty dollar. Meantime and over time they claim they have jurisdiction over every fucking thing, and through corporate loans et al the bank comes in and ultimately enslaves the whole 9 yards. You unwittingly proved how states are created and hence their illegitimacy of jurisdiction over ANYONE but their own signed sealed delivered members. good post Why do you think I unwittingly proved that? Of course that's all a state is. so you intended to prove it then. Statism in its present form is entirely out dated and useless and should be all but completely abolished right along with state/fed taxation which is nothing more than the extension of british feudalism.

Politesub53 -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:48:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule There are about 44 million Muslims in Europe at the moment. In 2030 there will be about sixty million. How is that not an invasion by nearly one million Muslims per year? Source Immigration doesnt equal invasion. Mulims born in the UK dont equal invasion. Your statement is rather racist to say the least.

Politesub53 -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:52:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML btw, kudos for your assumed name, dawg. [:)] It was hardly rocket science though. [;)]

Rule -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:57:09 AM)
You know what is racist? This: When a Muslim girl allows herself to be courted by a Christian male, she is murdered by her relatives. I do not know of any exceptions.

Politesub53 -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 10:59:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule You know what is racist? This: When a Muslim girl allows herself to be courted by a Christian male, she is murdered by her relatives. I do not know of any exceptions. This disturbing event doesnt exonerate your posts though. It just points out there are racists on BOTH sides of the divide.

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 11:05:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Thanks for the kudos. I don't know why you said I made a misrepresentation about the process of colonization in the Middle East. I made NO representations about the process of colonization there, at all. The original poster said all colonizers were evil. The west is terrible. The sky is falling! Why can't you recognize how evil you are etc etc. I said that colonization is one data point in a spectrum of statecraft for both the dominant and subdominant culture. And it is. Certainlly cultures can (and have) resisted to the death before - but this is not actually to what I was referring. Areas become colonies (or client states) voluntarily as well. For example the US (and britain, to some extent) set up the hashemites as kings in Saudia Arabia and Jordan. And while our influence with these client states is fading - nonetheless this has been a profitable for both countries. As I said, client states, colonies, allies (like the us/britain) - all are just points on the continuum of statecraft where states try to effect results to the benefits of their nations. and what is a state for 100? nothing more than an association of businesses for profit, mostly their own, who eventually force all inhabitants to into their religion worshiping the almighty dollar. Meantime and over time they claim they have jurisdiction over every fucking thing, and through corporate loans et al the bank comes in and ultimately enslaves the whole 9 yards. You unwittingly proved how states are created and hence their illegitimacy of jurisdiction over ANYONE but their own signed sealed delivered members. good post Why do you think I unwittingly proved that? Of course that's all a state is. so you intended to prove it then. Statism in its present form is entirely out dated and useless and should be all but completely abolished right along with state/fed taxation which is nothing more than the extension of british feudalism. I don't think it needs to be proved anymore than the sky is blue, or gravity occurs. Its self evident. I hate statism (also previously stated.) And states are not well suited for many current problems. That said, no, I don't believe that the abolishment of states serve a useful purpose. States provide some measure of physical security and some options on economic and political policy. The fact that they don't handle trans national questions like the muslims well; or that our institutions are failing due to degeneration doens't mean the mechanism of statehood should be discarded. Although, personally I would end the TSA, end the NSA spying on domestic phone calls. I would put a cap on the max size of big govt, big business, and big labor.

vincentML -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 11:16:54 AM)
quote: Although, personally I would end the TSA, end the NSA spying on domestic phone calls. I would put a cap on the max size of big govt, big business, and big labor. And putting a cap on big govt, big biz, and big tool would be who . . . big god? Your comments earlier make sense within the stream of real politik but here you seem to be tilting at windmills. Six billion people in the world, supersonic transportation, worldwide personal communications and money exchange at the speed of light and you dream of what . . . a bucolic agricultural society of small towns and counties?? This aint Kansas anymore, Toto.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 11:24:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux And yet the difference between client-state and colony does not. Could it be because you have different standards depending on whether you agree with the POV? So, you are asking me if I am consistent because of subjectivity? No, it is for love to logic. slapface So. Imperialism is not the same as colonialism, and "client state" is not the same as colonialism. You care to say something about colonialism? Ah, no, I forgot, for you both they are the same because they are "points on a continuum of tools of statecraft", as looking angry at somebody is as licit as genocide ("points on a continuum of agression"), and a fly is as big as a planet ("points on a continuum of size"). Sorry for asking, forget about it... see you when you return from your world to this one. Best regards.

vincentML -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 12:18:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Rule There are about 44 million Muslims in Europe at the moment. In 2030 there will be about sixty million. How is that not an invasion by nearly one million Muslims per year? Source Immigration doesnt equal invasion. Mulims born in the UK dont equal invasion. Your statement is rather racist to say the least. Clearly and despicably racist. Genetic superiority of one race over another? Is there anything written on this Board that stinks more of the odor of gas chambers and crematoria than those types of remarks? Is there anything more ugly ever written on these Boards? I don't think so.

vincentML -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 12:20:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux And yet the difference between client-state and colony does not. Could it be because you have different standards depending on whether you agree with the POV? So, you are asking me if I am consistent because of subjectivity? No, it is for love to logic. slapface So. Imperialism is not the same as colonialism, and "client state" is not the same as colonialism. You care to say something about colonialism? Ah, no, I forgot, for you both they are the same because they are "points on a continuum of tools of statecraft", as looking angry at somebody is as licit as genocide ("points on a continuum of agression"), and a fly is as big as a planet ("points on a continuum of size"). Sorry for asking, forget about it... see you when you return from your world to this one. Best regards. QFT . . . excellent reply by you, SMM. [:)]

vincentML -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 12:33:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YN So it bothers you the Chinese treat the United States the way the United States and Europeans have treated the rest of the world for centuries? You are the among those here justifying imperialism, so you should not complain about being paid in your own coins. The Chinese are not treating the United States in the fashion you surmise. The employment of slave labor in Asia is actively engaged by American and European corporations with the assistance of the Asian states. China allows her people to be exploited, to live in crowded, polluted urban slums and work long hours with little respite. China allows massive migration from its rural regions and withholds urban passports for its citizens, depriving them of healthcare and education. Is that a triumph for China over America? Was it China's triumph that 1000 Bangledeshi workers were trapped and killed at their workplace? I don't think so. Such exploitation of labour is not new of course neither in the West nor in Asia. But it is hardly a triumph of statesmanship. You may wish that China emerges as the more powerful nation but don't hold your breath. It will not happen soon.

vincentML -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 12:44:20 PM)
quote: Areas become colonies (or client states) voluntarily as well. For example the US (and britain, to some extent) set up the hashemites as kings in Saudia Arabia and Jordan. And while our influence with these client states is fading - nonetheless this has been a profitable for both countries. Fine. But this does not describe the intrusion of Zionism into the Levant during the early part of the 20th C. Nor does it speak to the religious zealotry that drives the continuing oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank by the settlement movement and the IDF, destroying vast amounts of olive orchards and shooting randomly and wantonly to terrorize small villages. You theories of statescraft are blind to the immoral activities taking place on the ground.

vincentML -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 12:47:47 PM)
quote: When the Swedish or French emigrate to another country, do you see them not assimilate, earn low wages and rioting? The French are not allowed to be anything but French and only follow where their armies have lead them.

YN -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 12:59:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: YN So it bothers you the Chinese treat the United States the way the United States and Europeans have treated the rest of the world for centuries? You are the among those here justifying imperialism, so you should not complain about being paid in your own coins. The Chinese are not treating the United States in the fashion you surmise. The employment of slave labor in Asia is actively engaged by American and European corporations with the assistance of the Asian states. China allows her people to be exploited, to live in crowded, polluted urban slums and work long hours with little respite. China allows massive migration from its rural regions and withholds urban passports for its citizens, depriving them of healthcare and education. Is that a triumph for China over America? Was it China's triumph that 1000 Bangledeshi workers were trapped and killed at their workplace? I don't think so. Such exploitation of labour is not new of course neither in the West nor in Asia. But it is hardly a triumph of statesmanship. You may wish that China emerges as the more powerful nation but don't hold your breath. It will not happen soon. It will happen around 2020.

Rule -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 1:16:50 PM)
never mind

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 2:27:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Although, personally I would end the TSA, end the NSA spying on domestic phone calls. I would put a cap on the max size of big govt, big business, and big labor. And putting a cap on big govt, big biz, and big tool would be who . . . big god? Your comments earlier make sense within the stream of real politik but here you seem to be tilting at windmills. Six billion people in the world, supersonic transportation, worldwide personal communications and money exchange at the speed of light and you dream of what . . . a bucolic agricultural society of small towns and counties?? This aint Kansas anymore, Toto. Bucolic agricultural society? Um No. I hate agrarian society. Boring. I oppose things like the TSA because it is a politically correct non-solution. Politically correct in so many ways. Lets pat down grandma shall we? I oppose the TSA because an hour to clear security on both sides of a flight, or 4 hours at a time is an unwarranted, unproductive tax. I oppose the TSA because its STUPID. By the way, you are quite correct about real politick - I kept meaning to bring that up, but it got edited out for brevity at least once. Or as the British call it 'The Game'. And really, although we colonials haven't mastered the Art of the Game the brits are probably the preeminent master the world has ever seen. Personally, I think it the inspiration for Game of Thrones. As for the rest: The European & US governments are bloated and inefficient. Too many entitltements. To much government. (See for example that it takes on average 228 days to pull the necessary permits to open a small business in california - vs 1 in much of africa). The cost of government is consuming a high percentage of our budget. We have no money for services because we are paying for employees. Proof: Example california where 5 cities have gone bankrupt due to an inability to fund pension obligations. At the heart of the european currency crisis is the fact the european productivity growth did not keep pace with european spending. China has money for the sky train. The yellow river gorges. They've built out an entire highway system equivalent to our own. They've announced a space program - we've cancelled ours. It isn't just a question of walmart (and other big companies shipping jobs to china) - its that politicians have made it too onerous to create products in the US. The US and European systems must crash. The only question is whether it will crash somewhat gracefully (cut US govt in a raitional basis now) or catastrophically - when our debt gets to 160% of GDP in 5 years. We are in a competition so far, mostly peaceful, with china. Only we are tying lead weights around our feet, hands and necks, and trying to run a race. And as much as the dems / libs want to moan about liberal values - those values are inconsequential in the long run if you can't uphold the balance of power. We believe that allowing women to work and go to school is a net asset. We believe that having a social security network is an asset. We believe that the right of assemby and free speech are good things. China and the Muslim world believe differently. The original poster - clearly believes differently. Who will win depends on how well they compete. And our response to muslim fundamentalism has been idiotic. Our response to china has been better, but still weak.

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 3:00:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Areas become colonies (or client states) voluntarily as well. For example the US (and britain, to some extent) set up the hashemites as kings in Saudia Arabia and Jordan. And while our influence with these client states is fading - nonetheless this has been a profitable for both countries. Fine. But this does not describe the intrusion of Zionism into the Levant during the early part of the 20th C. Nor does it speak to the religious zealotry that drives the continuing oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank by the settlement movement and the IDF, destroying vast amounts of olive orchards and shooting randomly and wantonly to terrorize small villages. You theories of statescraft are blind to the immoral activities taking place on the ground. I never said that it does describe the renewed presence of zionism in the levant. How is the introduction of zionism into the levant different than the introductions of muslims into Europe in any substantive way? Short answer: It isn't. Nor is it different than the croats oppressing the serbs in yugoslavia, and the serbs then breaking apart and forming their own nation. Nor is it different from the serbian attempts at genocide against the albanians (kosovo) croats and bosnians. "My theories of statecraft are blind to the immoral activities taking place on the ground." Absolutely right. I've said it many times - statecraft and morality are almost completely unrelated. Its hardly an original thought. "The Prince" said it well. Morally, I'd like everyone to live in peace and harmony and have 1.8 children. I'd like an end to nuclear war, weapons of mass destruction. Do I think its a goal worth working towards? Perhaps. Do I see it happening - hell no. I see muslim nations hell bent on acquiring nuclear weapons. Read the writings of KQ Khan father of nuclear pakistan (as well as nuclear NK, and nuclear aspirations in iran, libya, syria) if you want some real chilling, scary stuff. I see Turkey, Egypt, Kyrgistan, chechniya falling into muslim extremism. I see the rize of NGO actors that are capable with technology of unleashing hell with impunity, either with the aid of state actors or independently. I see China attempting forceable expansion by claiming border areas with india, vietnam,philipines, korea, japan. I see a soviet union as a rapidly failing state, although most (including putin) don't see it yet. Soviet energy & mineral exports are declining due to their political system not making capital investments positive. They are losing control of their nether regions which identify increasingly as part of a muslim ideology and not part of a russian/soviet ideology. I see a nation where alcoholism approaches 50%. Soooo returning to the original topic. Is any nation morally pure. Hmm. no. Has the american century been relatively benign. Hmm. Yes. Do I think America was particularly guilty of colonialism. Hmm no. Do I think the behavior of Americans has been particularly bad. Hmm no. Take palestine where we have tried many times to broker an arab /israeli peace. Compare that to oh - say the mongol invasion of the caliphate states. The japanese invasion of china. The persian war against the Greeks. The ottoman rape of constantinople. In war Americans take a lot of steps to preclude enemy civilian casualties. Always successful - no. But, generally more humane than whatever nation tweak favors. Yes, probably so.

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