RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'.

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

njlauren -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 5:37:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux China averages 1/4 the per capita income of the US. Average is pointless. The typical Chinese household has *half* the income of the typical US household. quote: China is an environmental disaster. They're also taking steps to deal with this, such as investing heavily in nuclear power and researching thorium power. Also, the US isn't exactly a model of environmental awareness or sustainable anything. quote: Much of china's population is illiterate, and china's social institutions have not kept pace with the transition from third to first world economy. Don't mistake China for a homogenous country. Mainland China has a literacy rate of 98%, compared to the USA having 99% and Norway having 100%, so mainland China isn't further behind the USA than the USA is behind Norway. All 3 of them are doing great. However, the Tibet autonomous region has a literacy of only 62%, and several of the administrative divisions (e.g. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Mongolia) are in the mid 90s, pulling down the average. You already pointed out the aging population, and I'm fairly certain the rural and elderly population account for most of the illiteracy. Social inequality is the main issue here, and it's equally present in the USA, where the typical household income is one sixth of the average household income. Tibet isn't going to look anything like Beijing for the forseeable future, and this is to be expected. For comparison, if Israel were to integrate the Palestinian population, the load on the Israeli infrastructure would double overnight, completely overwhelming it. China has far fewer challenges to meet on this point than either of those two countries. quote: On top of that, china is sitting on a real estate bubble the likes of which the world has never seen. You must never have been to Norway. The world has definitely seen the likes of it. quote: And despite china's rapid militarization, it has nowhere near the military capability of the soviet union, let alone the US. Carrier targetted ICBMs or not. It has nuclear, and lacks the ambition of being world police. Thus, what it has is sufficient for its needs. quote: Much of china's rapid progress as been the capturing of low hanging fruit. Actually, this was true, of a phase in Chinese history, but that phase ended while Latin was still a living language, ages ago. They expanded more than we did, early on, and so exhausted their surface resources before they developed the tech to harness subsurface resources. Later, we contributed our tech and lifted them out of that slump. Now, they're no longer in that position, and have what they need to keep going. As such, currently, while China has a ways to go in some areas, it has secured dominance in several key areas that will shape the future. Have you ever visited the Shēnzèn special economic zone? IWYW, — Aswad. China is facing big problems and they won't be easy to solve. China's economic growth has been based on what China traditionally has had, large populations of cheap labor that can do amazing things, like the Great Wall of China. In modern times, they have done well because with a country of over a billion people, where 2/3rd of them live in poverty (estimated about 800 million), companies found they could move there and manufacture cheaply, with dirt cheap wages, and they didn't have to employ modern methods, they could use hundred year old techniques with relatively crude methods and do it much cheaper, because of the labor. Even now, typical wages in manufacturing in China are about 50c an hour, no benefits, and that is nowhere near half the typical wage in the US (officially the typical salary is around 45k US). The problem is now workers there have moved beyond 19th century early industrial revolution ideas of working and they want more. Chinese workers are holding the US owner of a factory hostage because they are afraid of being laid off, and even with China's plan to resettle hundreds of millions from poor, rural regions to the city areas, their costs are rising and they can't get away with competing on cheap labor.....but there is a catch, to become more efficient (in terms of productivity, china is on the low end of the totem pole) means making things more efficiently, but that means less labor, something China decidedly doesn't want.....and export only doesn't fly, which is another big problem they have, cheap wage states can't build an internal economy. Sure, China has a lot of well off people, but they are a tiny percentage of the population (Chinas population is 4x the US's, so even a small percent being well off is a lot of people), but it is skewed. Income inequality is a problem all over, but in China it is a very sore point. The wealthiest people in China, who control a lot of the country's wealth, get that way through ties to the government and corruption, and it is not very beneficial to China's future that it be this way. There is a lot of resentment, and despite the government trying to crack down, it hasn't done much, and while they try to suppress this, people in China aren't dumb, they know people in other countries are buying Ipods and so forth, and want them for themselves. Corruption is endemic and it makes operating their difficult. The biggest problem they face is cultural. Right now China's R and D is pretty much industrial espionage, people doing business in China, joint ventures, expect to get ripped off (a Chinese auto company that works with toyota, for example, completely copied Toyota's synergy drive, and then had the balls to try and patent it outside the country..meanwhile China doesn't recognize Toyota's patents).....most of their R and D is spent cracking into computer systems overseas to steal industrial secrets. The reason they do this is simple, the oppressive government with their mania for order and fear of the future means a culture that is afraid of new things, and you can't innovate like that. Friend of mine was involved in a joint venture with a Chinese company, and he was amazed when they came up with this elaborate roadmap of a technology they were trying to develop, and they had not just milestones, but breakthroughs, carefully plotted out.....problem with that is, you don't control innovation, and planning for breakthroughs is an oxymoron. There has been a lot said about the 'sea turtles', Chinese students who study in the west, then go home to China, lot of them end up going back when they realize how oppressive the culture is in labs and such, with some bureaucrat dictating how and where they do things. It has nothing to do with intelligence or creativity, it has to do with a bad system of government and education, that cherishes order and rote over creativity and change. Even the claims of literacy are dubious, those figures come from the Chinese government. I work with a number of Chinese immigrants, who go back home a lot, and they said those numbers are exagerrated, that get out of the cities and a lot of the people are barely literate, if at all. Their banking system is also suspect, in part because it is so secretive, as bad as the banks are in Europe and the US, they at least have some reporting requirements, in China, that is literally a state secret. From reading between the lines, I suspect they have a major meltdown that is going to happen, and if anything, may be worse then what happened here and in Europe, because just so much has been buried for too long... They aren't unsolvable problems, but their current system is cracking, and not just at the edges. Though it has its own problems, India is poised to take over the low wage markets, assuming they can fix their infrastructure, China in many ways is Monaco compared to India with its problems and so forth. Among other things, no great country can exist as a place reliant strictly on low wages, and it requires developing an internal economy, one where they can produce things their own people need and can afford, which doesn't work in a 19th century economy like China's is de facto. I was reading about the steel being used on the new Bay Bridge, they said the guy working in the steel mills worked for 50c an hour, 16 hours a day at times, 6 or 7 days a week.......you can't predicate a modern economy on those kind of wages.

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 5:47:59 PM)
well said NJ. I just wasn't willing to document as thoroughly as you. China additionally has a hybrid command/capitalistic economy, which skews figures terribly. Ghost cities. Terrible male / female ratio. Which might be cured by immigration except for xenophobia/nationalism. China is up and coming on educational institutions - but is still not equivalent to harvard, caltech, mit etc. And its patent law while permitting theft of western ideas doesn't protect chinese ideas and so discourages their IP industry. Chinese patents are widely thought of as derivative rather than evolutionary.

njlauren -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 5:50:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub But can you see where a way of life is being challenged? I am not saying it is bad just a fact. Reading some of the stories coming out of Europe on immigration I get the impression that many Muslims are not integrating their cultures into the existing one. This is creating friction between the two. Pointing this out is not racists is it? So far at least here in the US immigrants of all types seem to rejoice in their new freedoms and opportunities and have added to our culture rather than try to replace it. Oh we have problems from time to time no way to deny this but on the whole they are becoming Americans.. if you get my meaning. Butch No I cant Butch. Just as i dont see our way of life being challenged by any other Religion in the UK. We have plenty of hotheads both Christian and Muslim spouting on about this, but the majority dont see it as an issue. If anything change is more influenced by the financial climate. Really? You don't remember Rowan (archbishop of canterbury) saying that sharia law would have to be implimented in england? Or that some areas in england were no-go areas for non muslims? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm What Williams said was that the law might want to incorporate some aspects of Sharia law to make Muslims more comfortable (which I thought was stupid, but in any event). What he was referring to was that for example, in civic contract law that Sharia law governing, for example, lending, be incorporated as part of civic law, to make it official. For example, some financial institutions have what they call Sharia compliant loans and financing, that are acceptable under Islamic belief (don't ask me for the details, I don't know for sure how that works, with interest and such......). Or for example allow a Muslim couple to marry and agree to Islamic terms of marriage and divorce that would be considered a binding contract. One thing to note, these would only be made to accomodate Muslims, they would not apply to everyone else...and he was not talking about Islamic law in terms of criminal law, only civil stuff......His idea it would make Muslims feel more a part of society if it showed some signs of accomodating them..... The real problem in Europe and England is that muslims there are made to feel like outsiders, it is very different then the US. While we have areas in the US, like Dearborn, some sections of Patterson, NJ and other areas, where Muslims have congregated, it is still a bit different, because that isn't necessarily the norm. In the UK and Europe they are a separate population, living in their own areas, and aren't integrated, and it has led to alienation and such. Whether it is the insularity of the people themselves, the rest of the population isolating them, or a combination of both, I don't know...I do know that for the most part, Muslims in the US are a lot more integrated, least they are in my own area. Doesn't mean it is perfect, the whole hullabalo about the WTC Mosque a couple of years ago highlights it isn't all tea and roses, but all in all, it is still a lot better integrated then other places. I have heard cries of Sharia taking over, and that is bullshit, among other things, there is no such thing as "Sharia" law, in so far as it means different things to different people in different countries. Sharia law in Indonesia means something different than in Iran, they all have different ideas what this means..among other things, it isn't exactly clearly laid out in the Q'ran, any more then ideas of religious law are necessarily clear in the bible (for example, Catholics claim the bible underlies their ban on birth control, while other Christians don't believe that). There was a case like this in NJ, a divorce case between a couple from Morrocco, where a Judge ruled that under the terms of their own culture/law back home, that the woman didn't have the right to sue on the ground she did, that she in effect agreed to that law when married back in Morocco and therefore it was binding....it was quickly overturned on appeal, and the judge got a nasty gram from the appellate court that his ruling was crap, that NJ law held since they lived here and were in NJ courts, but the right wing tried to turn this into Sharia law taking over.

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 5:56:02 PM)
But polite - my point was that you cant envision life in the uk changing. Its already changing. One of the pillars of the UK state religion is saying that the adoption of sharia law - is inevitable. And you already do, like france, have large communities of muslims where it is unsafe to go solely because you are not muslim. I've been to one of them. You have muslim patrols telling people to cover up - you were entering a muslim area. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9836109/Muslim-patrols-could-become-more-prevalent-and-more-violent-warns-anti-extremist.html Take a look at this article: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones How dare the british home secretary enter a muslim area?? Or how about you just had two muslims immigrants behead a man and say "you people will never be safe.."

kdsub -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 5:57:31 PM)
There is a saying in boxing that a good big man will always beat a good little man. I think the same applies to national populations. The shear number of Chinese assures a vast pool of talents of all kinds from art to engineering with the proper education and resources. China today and to a lesser extent India is showing this to be true. Otherwise given the same education and resources as the US, China should be able to continue its expansion and eventually surpass the US in industrial and artistic might. Simply because they have more people. I am a firm believer that all people on average have the same potential both physically and mentally and this means the more minds directed at any problem the greater the progress. It is the political climate in China that may hold it back but I think even this will change as more Chinese reach the middle class. The communist control is slipping and will continue to do so in my opinion and as it does China will only grow faster. Butch

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:03:11 PM)
quote: What Williams said was that the law might want to incorporate some aspects of Sharia law Sorry - what he said was that sharia law was inevitable. And if you read my posts in the last article the muslims have as a goal and have effected it in practice is 12 sharia enclaves in britain. 751 in europe. Read some of the articles. And don't be so sanguine that it can't happen here. Remember the ethiopian and somalian youths from MN that went to fight jihad? You're right -radicalization is behind here, due to more successful assimilation. But remember the jihadist called the American; the american muslim preacher al-alikki? Major Husan? Remember the boston bombers?

njlauren -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:09:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: What Williams said was that the law might want to incorporate some aspects of Sharia law Sorry - what he said was that sharia law was inevitable. And if you read my posts in the last article the muslims have as a goal and have effected it in practice is 12 sharia enclaves in britain. 751 in europe. Read some of the articles. And don't be so sanguine that it can't happen here. Remember the ethiopian and somalian youths from MN that went to fight jihad? You're right -radicalization is behind here, due to more successful assimilation. But remember the jihadist called the American; the american muslim preacher al-alikki? Major Husan? Remember the boston bombers? Those were individuals, as was Ramsay Yusef (convicted of the '93 WTC bombing), and so forth. It doesn't mean there aren't homegrown issues, there are always going to be malcontents, an american born Hispanic Jose Padilla was convicted of planning terrorist attacks..but also remember Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were american, and look what they did... one thing to keep in mind is many of those immigrating to the US are looking to get away from the kind of crap you are claiming, they could have stayed home and had Imans telling them how to live, they came to the US to get away from that. Being scared of Sharia law is idiotic when no one is pressing it here in the US, and unlike other countries, we have specific protections against that kind of thing (what passes for a constitution in UK, for example, is often a lot of old traditions and such that was never written down).

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:12:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub There is a saying in boxing that a good big man will always beat a good little man. Let me turn the quote around on you Butch. In world economies, the US is the good big man - with twice the economy as china. Why do you think the economic advantage is less important than the population advantage? Giving another example: In operation desert storm the iraqi army and the allied army were numerically similar. Numbers don't count for everything.

PeonForHer -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:15:36 PM)
quote: Take a look at this article: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones The group behind the campaign to turn twelve cities into enclaves 'governed by Sharia law' is called Muslims Aginst Crusades (MAC). "On 30 July, around 50 members of MAC and Waltham Forest Muslims marched for two hours from Leyton tube station to Walthamstow town square calling for democracy to be replaced by Sharia law and chanted slogans such as ‘democracy—hypocrisy’, ‘Sharia for UK’ and ‘Secularism go to hell’.[18 On 2 December 2011, over 20 individuals believed to be associated with MAC were arrested at a demonstration outside the U.S. embassy in London, who were reportedly protesting against the NATO and US drone attacks in Pakistani territory especially the recent US-led attack on Pakistani Army post which resulted in killing of 26 Pakistani troops." My bolds. I don't think we're looking at large group here, Phydeaux. They could all fit in my home, and I don't live in a castle.

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:22:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Take a look at this article: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones The group behind the campaign to turn twelve cities into enclaves 'governed by Sharia law' is called Muslims Aginst Crusades (MAC). "On 30 July, around 50 members of MAC and Waltham Forest Muslims marched for two hours from Leyton tube station to Walthamstow town square calling for democracy to be replaced by Sharia law and chanted slogans such as ‘democracy—hypocrisy’, ‘Sharia for UK’ and ‘Secularism go to hell’.[18 On 2 December 2011, over 20 individuals believed to be associated with MAC were arrested at a demonstration outside the U.S. embassy in London, who were reportedly protesting against the NATO and US drone attacks in Pakistani territory especially the recent US-led attack on Pakistani Army post which resulted in killing of 26 Pakistani troops." My bolds. I don't think we're looking at large group here, Phydeaux. They could all fit in my home, and I don't live in a castle. I've been to muslim only areas outside london. And there were far more people than 20. 5000? 10,000? What makes you think Britain (or the US) will be significantly different than France, germany, the netherlands or sweden once the population % gets sufficiently large - which it inevitably will due to your Eurozone immigration politicies? Esteemed vanity fair poll says that 37% of muslims under 24 believe that muslims who convert should be killed. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/06/hitchens200706 Last line is telling; the muslim extremist, again in the image of uma says "who says you own britain, anyway".

kdsub -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:24:32 PM)
Why did the US get as powerful economically as it did?... Do you think we are any smarter, capable, or original, than the people in the UK or France for instance? No we are just the largest group of people to put together education and resources under an enabling political climate and therefore the largest economy to this time. We are no better then the countries mentioned above... our only difference is our talent pool...and it is only larger because of the number of skilled and educated workers. We have shown the way and countries like China and India have paid attention and or following in our footsteps...and should, baring political upheaval ,surpass us eventually. They will not be better... just as the US is not better than smaller population countries...just bigger. Of course this all depends on their ability to educate and access to resources under the proper political climate. Butch

Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I agree with much of what you said. China is doing x,y and z. None of these things will be completed soon, ie, in time to make china the most powerful nation on the planet by 2020. Sorry, I misread the year. Mea culpa. Agreed, 2020 is an optimistic estimate for most powerful. quote: And yes. I've visited much of china. korean. japan. phillipines and norway - not to mention more than 80 other nations. Cool. [:)] quote: But this part [...] is laughable. It was meant to be funny, so laughable is good. My definition of low hanging fruit is different from yours, though, which was the basis for my admittedly oblique attempt at humor. Anyway, yes, the modern growth phase of China is very recent and unlikely to skyrocket from here, though it's also unlikely to slow quite as much as I get the impression you seem to think. There have been some impressive and at times surprising steps taken along the way to secure their future growth. Recent growth is a familiar thing, as are some of the complaints about inequalities that go with it. The typical income in China has shifted upwards by an order of magnitude, but the inequalities have grown, since some have been gaining far more than others. That's to be expected, but it still feels like a major issue to people holding the shortest end of the stick (even if the stick got a lot longer and hoisted up out of the water), since they see others making more, affording more, etc. Even Norway has seen some of that, with tons of people outraged that Iplimumab® was only subsidized, not fully free, for a while (synthetic monoclonal antibody for terminal metastatic melanoma; one in ten respond; cost to treat is one million dollars; outcome is six good months on average for those that respond). This place doesn't even remotely resemble the country I grew up in, and I imagine similar things hold true for a lot of Chinese. Overall, from the income distribution charts I've seen, China has done a lot of things very well, and while hard work lies ahead, I don't see anything insurmountable ahead of them. IWYW, — Aswad.

njlauren -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:36:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Take a look at this article: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones The group behind the campaign to turn twelve cities into enclaves 'governed by Sharia law' is called Muslims Aginst Crusades (MAC). "On 30 July, around 50 members of MAC and Waltham Forest Muslims marched for two hours from Leyton tube station to Walthamstow town square calling for democracy to be replaced by Sharia law and chanted slogans such as ‘democracy—hypocrisy’, ‘Sharia for UK’ and ‘Secularism go to hell’.[18 On 2 December 2011, over 20 individuals believed to be associated with MAC were arrested at a demonstration outside the U.S. embassy in London, who were reportedly protesting against the NATO and US drone attacks in Pakistani territory especially the recent US-led attack on Pakistani Army post which resulted in killing of 26 Pakistani troops." My bolds. I don't think we're looking at large group here, Phydeaux. They could all fit in my home, and I don't live in a castle. I've been to muslim only areas outside london. And there were far more people than 20. 5000? 10,000? What makes you think Britain (or the US) will be significantly different than France, germany, the netherlands or sweden once the population % gets sufficiently large - which it inevitably will due to your Eurozone immigration politicies? Somehow we didn't do it when the country was 90% or 100% Christian, the US has never had an official religion and religious law has never directly been the law of this land, despite what the idiot evangelicals believe. Even today the Country is roughly 70% Christian or Christian identified, yet we are going the other way. Sure, we have had some religion inspired laws that never should have been passed, things like blue laws, but the reason it won't happen is that most people don't want that to happen. The GOP and their religious right nutjobs have tried it, and they failed, they haven't gotten prayer back in the schools, they haven't gotten it so that Biblical penalties for adultery and being gay are law, they failed with Sodomy laws (despite Antonin "I love the Pope" Scalia's attempt to do so), every attempt has failed....and part of the reason is the reason your post is hogwash, it is that Muslims are not all the same, and the problem with Sharia law is whose would it be? Sunni's sure as hell wouldn't want it to be Shiite, Shia same way with Sunni, Sufi's would hate any mention of it... Your example above shows that kind of logic. Whether a town has 50 muslims or 5000, the point is, the 'sharia zones' seem to be in the minds of those who dreamt it up, and it looks like it is a handful of people. If 5000 or 10,000 wanted it, how come they weren't out protesting/ What it leaves out is what I strongly suspect, that most muslims want nothing to do with Sharia law as 'real law', they simply want to be allowed to live in peace. Like I said in another post, immigrants generally want to leave the old country back home, my Grandfather left Italy in part because of economics, but also because between the Fascists and the Catholic Church, he felt there would be no hope for his kids. People immigrate to get away from that kind of stuff, not to recreate it where they move.

Rule -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I am a firm believer that all people on average have the same potential both physically and mentally Please elucidate on the contradiction between the two parts that I made bold. Furthermore: it is easy to demonstrate that your believe is false. Because I - on average (whatever that means; I think that in my case it means full-time) - am a supergenius, whereas all other people vary somewhere between dumb and bright, with most being 'normal', clearly they are without my potential, even as I in many respects am without their potential.

kdsub -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 6:55:15 PM)
There are some people due to mental or physical disabilities that have limited potential...but these are common through all populations and average out. There are also different levels of intelligence and this also averages out in my opinion. Butch

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 7:02:36 PM)
quote: Somehow we didn't do it when the country was 90% or 100% Christian, the US has never had an official religion and religious law has never directly been the law of this land, despite what the idiot evangelicals believe. Even today the Country is roughly 70% Christian or Christian identified, yet we are going the other way. Sure, we have had some religion inspired laws that never should have been passed, things like blue laws, but the reason it won't happen is that most people don't want that to happen. The GOP and their religious right nutjobs have tried it, and they failed, they haven't gotten prayer back in the schools, they haven't gotten it so that Biblical penalties for adultery and being gay are law, they failed with Sodomy laws (despite Antonin "I love the Pope" Scalia's attempt to do so), every attempt has failed....and part of the reason is the reason your post is hogwash, it is that Muslims are not all the same, and the problem with Sharia law is whose would it be? Sunni's sure as hell wouldn't want it to be Shiite, Shia same way with Sunni, Sufi's would hate any mention of it... Your example above shows that kind of logic. Whether a town has 50 muslims or 5000, the point is, the 'sharia zones' seem to be in the minds of those who dreamt it up, and it looks like it is a handful of people. If 5000 or 10,000 wanted it, how come they weren't out protesting/ What it leaves out is what I strongly suspect, that most muslims want nothing to do with Sharia law as 'real law', they simply want to be allowed to live in peace. Like I said in another post, immigrants generally want to leave the old country back home, my Grandfather left Italy in part because of economics, but also because between the Fascists and the Catholic Church, he felt there would be no hope for his kids. People immigrate to get away from that kind of stuff, not to recreate it where they move. Christian is nowhere near the same as muslim.

Phydeaux -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 7:13:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why did the US get as powerful economically as it did?... Do you think we are any smarter, capable, or original, than the people in the UK or France for instance? No we are just the largest group of people to put together education and resources under an enabling political climate and therefore the largest economy to this time. We are no better then the countries mentioned above... our only difference is our talent pool...and it is only larger because of the number of skilled and educated workers. We have shown the way and countries like China and India have paid attention and or following in our footsteps...and should, baring political upheaval ,surpass us eventually. They will not be better... just as the US is not better than smaller population countries...just bigger. Of course this all depends on their ability to educate and access to resources under the proper political climate. Butch Why did the US get as powerful as it did? Protestant work ethic. Belief in science. Relatively easy expansion across a continent (manifest destiny). Solid political framework. Capitalism. Protection for individuals enumerated in state law and british common law. The fact that our industry wasn't destroyed by invasion in WWI and WWII. Now it certainly could be that china or india could surpass us - but it is by no means inevitable. As a simple, ridiculous argument to make the point- india and china could have a war (as has happened before). We could nuke them. etc. More reasonably, just like japan was going to take us over in the 1980's - it didn't happen. Why? Japan got stuck in a deflationary cycle due to debt. (Due to a realestate bubble) Will that happen to china.. probably not. But I am reminded of a quote from the man that sold the Rockefeller center to the Japanese. "if they are so smart, why are they buying when I'm selling". And he was right. Real estate values tanked shortly thereafter.

kdsub -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 7:21:03 PM)
They are molding their economic structure on ours... And I agree with you... they must have an enabling political climate to succeed... and they are succeeding at least economically. That is what we are talking about. Nothing is cut in stone but there are no roadblocks that I can see. As much as we may dislike their governmental structure it is working with all its warts...but... it IS changing and will continue to change I believe as the middle class grows and demands more freedoms. It is happening already. The only way to stop this march to a Chinese version of democracy is to give up prosperity and think that point is already past. Butch

Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 8:07:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Phoenixpower, Aswad and a few others may be able to enlighten us. The visibility is high in Norway. The actual percentage is tolerable, however, even to most counterjihadists. If it stops growing. Our problem is that we have allowed ghetto formation and done a piss poor job of integration, while also taking in fewer labor immigrants than asylum immigrants, by far. Somalia, Pakistan and Iraq are major sources, and due to the ghetto formation, we're looking at getting neighbourhoods similar to the ones around Stockholm (but that's years from now, and assuming no improvement). Let's face it: in terms of peace and physical quality of life, Norway is Heaven on Earth. Against that background, with virtually no violence, immigrants from Somalia, Pakistan and Iraq stand out in a bad way. And they're instantly recognizeable in terms of ethnicity, in a population of Tolkienesque elves minus pointy ears. We're tall with Germanic skeletal structure, fair skin, blue eyes and straight, blonde hair, to go with the stereotype. Our women wear as little as the weather will allow. Our men shave. That means you won't instantly recognize an Eastern European, but Arabs, Asians and Africans will stand out, and particularly the ones that also have a substantially different culture. Norwegians aren't used to violence or insanity, both of which are overrepresented in the Arab and African population of immigrants here, a segment that is growing rapidly. We're also used to very liberal attitudes, and respect for women. We have a strong sense of porportionality. And, like most people, we have a distinct sense that some things "you just don't do". This causes a highly visible clash when a minority has some people that are (a) instantly recognizeable as part of that minority, (b) very conservative, (c) completely lack any semblance of respect for women, (d) hold porportionality in contempt, (e) consider the things we "just don't do" to be moral imperatives in some situations, (f) don't care to learn the language, (g) spit on the social norms and (h) act out in a bad way around the people that for all intents and purposes brought them from Hell to Heaven in material terms. They also have a fair number of bad seeds that don't do them any favors. We're big on allowing a voice in the media here, and there are some vocal bad seeds that really piss in the waterhole for everyone else. Saying that it's to be expected that Kurds will beat their wives and that we should accept it, that's not going to make any friends. Saying that boys will be boys and shouldn't be punished when five of them gang rape an ethnic norse woman "to satisfy their curiosity about the female body", that also doesn't look good. Justifying the latter with the important point that ethnic norse women are all slutty whores anyway, and that their bodies are thus morally up for grabs, that pretty much completes a crappy PR campaign. Round off the week with shooting (ding) a stranger (ding) in the back (ding) in broad daylight (ding) for looking at your sister (ding), and suddenly it rings hollow in a lot of people's ears when I assure them that not all (insert ethnicity or creed here) are bad. Also, it's not going to win any popularity contests when you take taxpayer money to bring your kids to your country of origins to have them circumcized. That was such a major problem that we addressed it by declaring the procedure to be illegal as an elective- even in adults with informed consent- and introducing mandatory genital inspection in schools to detect it. For teachers or healthcare workers to fail to report it carried a penalty on par with manslaughter. This caused an outrage in the immigrant community, as soon as we started information campaigns about it in their own languages, but they eventually adapted, of course. It was important enough to mutilate genitals over, but not important enough to give up Norwegian welfare, apparently. (This in reference to the Somali, primarily.) You no doubt had certain feelings for the machete guys in the UK recently. I've had similar feelings for other individuals in Norway with some regularity. Neither of us is inclined to project those feelings onto a whole group, but no doubt we're both aware that many are lazy in that department. Most of our immigrants are cool. Most of the population is fine with most of the immigrants. Some of the immigrants are a problem. Most of the population would like those evicted. Sensible people realize it's not all that easy to seperate good apples from bad apples. A sizeable minority of the population- one in three or so- are of the mind that the cost of the bad apples is too high to justify taking in the good apples. I'm not so sure they're wrong, if we confine the question to immigrants from Africa and the Middle East. A few years for things to settle down, with more active integration measures, might not be a bad idea overall. The Statistics and Census Bureau estimates we won't even break even as-is, for a number of very sound reasons that are too long to get into at this hour. That's problematic, as we know socioeconomics are a major reason why Norway is so peaceful and a good place to live for most. So, yeah, from what you're describing, it's more of a problem here, and a far more visible problem. That last part, of course, is the real reason why the counterjihad movement is gaining ground here. Really, it's got fuck-all to do with Islam, as I've said repeatedly on these boards. We have plenty of East Europeans that are Muslims, many of them conservative, and we don't have a problem with them at all. In fact, we love them. They are highly sought after in the workforce and welcomed with open arms. Similarly, the problematic individuals are evenly spread across different creeds, including Christianity. They're not evenly spread across countries of origin, however, so there's a definite cultural cluster. Instead of learning to distinguish, people just slap that cluster with the label "Islam", despite the strong presence of other creeds in that cluster. I consider that to be lazy, obviously, on par with racism and other bigotry. Me, I've enjoyed the company of most of the Muslims that I've been around, and most other immigrants I've been around. But I'm not thrilled at the idea of one million more Somalis, Pakistanis and Iraqis in one decade unless we find a way to get the ones we already have to adapt. Most of the trouble we have with immigrants can be laid at the feet of the Labor Party. But, then again, that goes for most of the trouble we have in Norway, period. [:D] Take my descriptions with a grain of salt. By Norwegian standards, if you're talking to the left, then I'm far right wing, ultraconservative, extremist, uneducated, irrational and bigoted; if you're talking to the right, then I'm far left wing, radical, extremist, overeducated, irrational and an apologist. I'd like to think that puts me somewhere in the general area of the middle ground, or- ideally- the sane position. But that's not a given, and I must admit I haven't studied the topic with a lot of interest. I just read statistics and news, talk to people on all sides, and try to be a half decent citizen instead of an ignorant fuckwit. From where I'm standing, we have a problem that is (a) real, (b) not pressing, (c) not urgent, (d) obscured by vocal idiots on all sides, (e) easily solvable on paper, (f) impossible to solve for the currently governing party, (g) politically difficult to solve, (h) well documented, (i) not going away, (j) getting worse so long as it's left unattended-to, (k) will be disasterous if we don't solve it, (l) is possible to turn into an absolute strength for this country if we actually do solve it, and (m) has nothing to do with 3-4% of the population being Muslims. Thus, I'd like to call it an opportunity, but I'm not comfortable with the situation. Sorry for the lengthy reply. I hate to be brief about a multifaceted topic. TLDR version: we have a problem, and it ain't Muslims. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. (6/26/2013 8:26:01 PM)
njlauren, I'll not quote the points I'm addressing this time, and I'll keep it relatively brief. China has a lot of cheap labor, true, but also has a growing segment providing more advanced services. No, the wealth isn't spread around as much as it might be, but as a nation, China is on the way up. In terms of individuals, the typical household incomes are about half that of the typical household incomes in the USA, which also suffers from the same problems as China on this point. By West European standards, the typical American household and the typical Chinese household both live in abject poverty. Compared to poor countries, those same households are doing well. The US is trending down on this point, while China is trending up. R&D in China has more industrial espionage than in the West, and they have certainly learned a lot from our outsourcing (which is part and parcel of outsourcing, as you want your partners to grow and learn so they can keep on meeting your requirements). They have less industrial espionage than the USA, however. Education, research and development keep trending up, while they're trending down in the US. That the emphasis will be on profitable exports for a while is rather obvious, and that may be detrimental, but not necessarily. Nobody is denying that China faces challenges in the domestic market, or that they're not "there yet". But you're describing the truth of yesteryear, from what I can tell. IWYW, — Aswad.

Page: << < prev 7 8 [9] 10 11 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625