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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 7:32:19 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		It's gonna be an acquittal.

No proof that Martin wasn't pounding Zimmerman, or that Martin didn't throw the first punch.

Zimmerman's story has been consistent throughout. Unless the prosecution can punch holes in it, he won't be convicted.

Based on Martin's fighting training, testimony, and the fact that he was in a lot better shape, I assume that he was on top of Zimmerman when Zimmerman pulled the gun and fired.

_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 361
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 7:37:25 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Exactly. So like I said, the noble stand your ground defense yiu put up and was such a winner turned into a dog. The legal analysts are pretty much wrong, because it was already ruled that it has no bearing since Geo didnt know anything about Martin. And it would hurt his case more than help to bring it up.


Evidence about fighting doesn't require George to know anything about Trayvon. The jury is allowed to use comparative physical abilities of the two in their judgement, so Trayvon's experience fighting would go to that.



But the judge has already disallowed it.


Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
View Entire Chapter
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 7:50:58 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Exactly. So like I said, the noble stand your ground defense yiu put up and was such a winner turned into a dog. The legal analysts are pretty much wrong, because it was already ruled that it has no bearing since Geo didnt know anything about Martin. And it would hurt his case more than help to bring it up.


Evidence about fighting doesn't require George to know anything about Trayvon. The jury is allowed to use comparative physical abilities of the two in their judgement, so Trayvon's experience fighting would go to that.



But the judge has already disallowed it.


Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
View Entire Chapter
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


She ruled that Trayvon's text messages needed to be authenticated first.

And thanks for quoting the statute that proves me right.

And meanwhile since no evidence is in play yet proving George is the aggressor, the aggressor clause is not likely to even be read to the jury. It wasn't read when Nelson read the instructions to the jury during selection.


< Message edited by Raiikun -- 6/29/2013 7:53:19 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 363
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 7:55:46 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I have quoted the one that proves a clear case of Dunning-Kruger on your behalf. What will be at issue is that. Whether or not he has exhausted every other reasonable means prior..........and we don't have much of that evidence, not evident in the following, the re-following, the argument, even had he pulled his gun out prior to the fistfight.........but we have no proof of exhaustion of other means yet, unless something is out there that we are unaware of.

But there wouldnt be, given rules of evidence.

12 reasonable men will have to decide the exhaustion, and I don't see 12 reasonable men doing so.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 6/29/2013 7:56:19 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 364
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:00:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Well, George starting out at his car and ending up just behind the kids home tells normal folks that he closed the distance between them.......ie pursued him.



There was no 'behind Trayvon's home'. Multiple witnesses heard the fight start over 300 feet away, much nearer to George's truck than Trayvon's home.



the fight STARTED over 300 feet away and George did not leave, I don't see exhaustion here, he has not met the burden of the proof according to statute, and it is his to meet. He has admitted the CRIME.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 365
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:04:24 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		Martins girlfriend stated Martin told her he was being followed by a "creepy ass cracker" and she also stated that the "creepy ass" part meant "perv"/"pervert".. If some pervert is following you, even if you are a young athletic male, you will imo be panicked.. I have been followed before and that is how I have felt.. I expect to a black person, someone that looks like a skinhead nutbar is extremely disconcerting.. When some perv/nutbar is following you, the last thing you want to do is lead them directly to your home!.. Being followed is what led to the altercation, imo Martin had just as much right if not more to stand his ground as Zimmy did...

That said, I doubt Zimmy will be convicted (even tho I feel he should be).. even if he isnt tho, I expect the IRS will be after him for taxes on donations if they have not been paid, and I expect he will not have an easy time finding a job unless he changes his name.. Zimmy is the architect of the situation he finds himself in..

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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:07:35 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

12 reasonable men will have to decide the exhaustion, and I don't see 12 reasonable men doing so.

Six women actually.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 367
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:13:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		in the synecdoche it is 12 reasonable men. The reality is it is six hysterical women according to some. But yea, sorry 6 women, I should be punctilious here.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 368
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:20:00 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
View Entire Chapter
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Tail . . . all your legalese will come to naught when these six ladies get in that room and start contemplating the image of Martin sitting on top of Zimmer and punching down at him. The image is more difinitive than all the legal tangle of this or that statute. Those ladies will sympathize with George.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 369
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:21:23 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Well, George starting out at his car and ending up just behind the kids home tells normal folks that he closed the distance between them.......ie pursued him.



There was no 'behind Trayvon's home'. Multiple witnesses heard the fight start over 300 feet away, much nearer to George's truck than Trayvon's home.



the fight STARTED over 300 feet away and George did not leave, I don't see exhaustion here, he has not met the burden of the proof according to statute, and it is his to meet. He has admitted the CRIME.



He was on the ground with Trayvon on top. Thus, with no reasonable (important word that) avenue of retreat at the moment he fired.

And no, he has admitted to no crime. He has admitted to a shooting, which in itself is not a crime.

Also, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Not George.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 6/29/2013 8:22:17 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 370
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:25:57 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The fight started where and ended where? The exhaustion of escape was where? Did Trayvon drag him? Nobody gives a fuck about the moment of the shot, he has admitted that crime, he now has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he meets the statute exception, for an aggressor.


It isn't like he was locked in a bathroom with the guy. Therein will lie the rub, no more and no less, the rest is ornamentation.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 371
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:31:08 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		No, George does not have to prove anything, and admitted no crime.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 372
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:32:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is not what the statute says. Clearly.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 373
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:34:39 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The fight started where and ended where? The exhaustion of escape was where? Did Trayvon drag him? Nobody gives a fuck about the moment of the shot, he has admitted that crime, he now has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he meets the statute exception, for an aggressor.


It isn't like he was locked in a bathroom with the guy. Therein will lie the rub, no more and no less, the rest is ornamentation.



News to me that a defendent has to prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. Did I miss something above?

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Profile   Post #: 374
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:36:06 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		The State has to prove that George was the aggressor for that apply. If they do (they haven't yet), then they have to prove that George was not in imminent fear of death, or that George had a reasonable method of retreat. The prosecution has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Then, if they get past that, the State still has to prove ill-will, hatred, or spite, again, beyond a reasonable doubt.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 375
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 8:38:41 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That is not what the statute says. Clearly.


The statute doesn't mention burden of proof at all.

The jury instructions, however, clearly say that if there is ANY reasonable doubt whether the defendant's use of force is justified, then he is not guilty.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 376
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 9:02:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Not so, there is the old imperfect self-defense which will lead to manslaughter.


The statute does not have to mention burden of proof, he has admitted to killing him, his defense is self-defense.

If he doesn't show any proof that he tried to get away, or that he wasn't the agressor, then a quick reading of the statute (because by god that is what the prosecution is arguing, he doesnt meet the exception in the statute based on his testimony and the testimony of others) then what you got? He definitely did not meet the definition of a stand your ground as you have so adamantly stated he did, and it is very iffy that he can meet the self defense exemption, because, we do not have any indication that he exhausted shit.....he didnt try to get away from the argument, the escalating situation. We have no testimony that he was not the aggressor

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 377
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 9:10:29 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		The prosecution has to prove George is the aggressor.

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Profile   Post #: 378
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 9:12:34 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Also fascinating... With all the national appearances Trayvon's mom made talking about how good he was...Trayvon's text messages show that she had kicked him out of the house for causing trouble.

So? Does being a teenager now equal a death sentence?

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Profile   Post #: 379
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 9:14:21 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Not so, there is the old imperfect self-defense which will lead to manslaughter.


You should look up the definition of manslaughter in Florida. It includes specifying that if use of force is justified ( is, self defense) then it isn't manslaughter.




(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 380
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