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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 10:04:20 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		But he is saying he was not following him at the time of the attack... and who is there to prove otherwise... Look I am not saying he does not deserve to be found guilty... I believe he did want to kill this boy... but despite what you want to believe there is no way to prove he was the aggressor... where Zimmerman has direct witness testimony that he was at least being attacked at the time of the shooting.

Hell just because he was following the kid is NOT a reason for the kid to attack him anyway... even if he did deserve it... I see sympathy with the kids family... I even see where the intent to kill was there... but I don't see where a fair jury will be able to say beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman intentially killed this young man even if in their hearts they believe this to be true.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/29/2013 10:05:32 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 401
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 10:05:44 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

Did he admit to killing him, yes, has he given any testimony or has anyone given that he tried to get away from Travon at anytime during the altercation?


Yes, Jonathan Good testified that it looked like George was screaming for help, and was trying but unable to get up.

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Profile   Post #: 402
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 10:06:16 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.


Yeah, iffy if he gets convicted or not, but it aint any can of corn.





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Profile   Post #: 403
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 10:08:38 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.



Untrue. He spent several minutes on phone with dispatch not even knowing where Trayvon was before getting attacked 10 seconds jog away from his truck.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 404
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 10:24:55 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Not guilty due to reasonable doubt.

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Profile   Post #: 405
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 10:32:03 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The fight started where and ended where? The exhaustion of escape was where? Did Trayvon drag him? Nobody gives a fuck about the moment of the shot, he has admitted that crime, he now has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he meets the statute exception, for an aggressor.


It isn't like he was locked in a bathroom with the guy. Therein will lie the rub, no more and no less, the rest is ornamentation.



News to me that a defendent has to prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. Did I miss something above?

When the defense is an affirmative defense the burden shifts to the defense.

I believe both you and Tail are wrong. Consider this from the website of a Florida Law Firm:

If a defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law.

In determining whether the use of deadly force or non-deadly force was warranted, a jury will look at the facts and circumstances as they appeared to the defendant at the time he or she claims to have acted in self-defense. The jury will examine what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances appearing to the defendant at the time of the incident. This inquiry into what a “reasonable person” would have done is known as an “objective standard.”

Where the defendant in a Florida criminal case presents any evidence of self-defense, the State must overcome the claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

The defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on self-defense in Florida when there is any evidence to support the claim. This is a low standard and even a “scintilla” of evidence will be sufficient, even if the self-defense theory is extremely weak or improbable. Self-defense may even be inferred from the State’s evidence without the Defendant or a defense witness ever taking the stand.

SOURCE IS A FLORIDA LAW FIRM




(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 406
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 11:43:20 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The fight started where and ended where? The exhaustion of escape was where? Did Trayvon drag him? Nobody gives a fuck about the moment of the shot, he has admitted that crime, he now has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he meets the statute exception, for an aggressor.


It isn't like he was locked in a bathroom with the guy. Therein will lie the rub, no more and no less, the rest is ornamentation.



News to me that a defendent has to prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. Did I miss something above?

When the defense is an affirmative defense the burden shifts to the defense.

I believe both you and Tail are wrong. Consider this from the website of a Florida Law Firm:

If a defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law.

In determining whether the use of deadly force or non-deadly force was warranted, a jury will look at the facts and circumstances as they appeared to the defendant at the time he or she claims to have acted in self-defense. The jury will examine what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances appearing to the defendant at the time of the incident. This inquiry into what a “reasonable person” would have done is known as an “objective standard.”

Where the defendant in a Florida criminal case presents any evidence of self-defense, the State must overcome the claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

The defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on self-defense in Florida when there is any evidence to support the claim. This is a low standard and even a “scintilla” of evidence will be sufficient, even if the self-defense theory is extremely weak or improbable. Self-defense may even be inferred from the State’s evidence without the Defendant or a defense witness ever taking the stand.

SOURCE IS A FLORIDA LAW FIRM

If that is the standard in Florida then murder is legal there. That is simply an impossible burden for the prosecution.

In sane states an affirmative defense shifts the burden to the defense although it doesn't require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 407
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 11:49:32 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		I wouldn't go so far to say murder is legal in Florida, but that is indeed the standard. The prosecution is required to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt before before the jury can really even consider if the State has proven the elements of the crime.

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Profile   Post #: 408
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 11:51:20 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		This is part of what will be read to the jury BTW:

If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find George Zimmerman not guilty.

However, if from the evidence you are convinced that George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 409
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 12:33:30 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am still waiting on the appellate court citation, btw.



From Jenkins vs State of Florida, 2006

"Further, it was only upon the occurrence of this attack that any “duty to retreat” arose.   The State failed to present evidence, however, that Mr. Jenkins could have reasonably retreated from this fight once it began.   The State's witnesses testified that during this brief moment in time, there was no reasonable opportunity to retreat.   Rather, the eyewitnesses saw Mr. Jenkins “wobbled” and his knees “buckled,” and testified that Mr. Jenkins had no time to retreat before Mr. Cerezo charged at him a second time.6  It was only at this point-faced with a serious aggressor and no avenue of retreat-that Mr. Jenkins pulled out his knife."

The court ruled that "wobbling and buckled knees" was sufficient to have no avenue of retreat. Thus, being on the ground while attacked certainly meets that too.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 410
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 12:44:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.



Untrue. He spent several minutes on phone with dispatch not even knowing where Trayvon was before getting attacked 10 seconds jog away from his truck.

Based on the map here http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg
It looks to be about 400' by foot from the truck to where the altercation occurred.
If you can jog that in 10 seconds, the USOC wants you to sign up because there's gold in your future.

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Profile   Post #: 411
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 12:58:56 PM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If George had stayed in/at his car, the boy would have made it home.
If Trayvon had stayed home, he would been home.

There would have been no incident.
There would have been no incident.


There is no denying that.
There is no denying that.



(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 412
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:13:27 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If George had stayed in/at his car, the boy would have made it home.
If Trayvon had stayed home, he would been home.

There would have been no incident.
There would have been no incident.


There is no denying that.
There is no denying that.






I may be confused, but are you trying to say that this was all Trayvon's fault because he decided to walk to the store?

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Profile   Post #: 413
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:16:22 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If George had stayed in/at his car, the boy would have made it home.
If Trayvon had stayed home, he would been home.

There would have been no incident.
There would have been no incident.


There is no denying that.
There is no denying that.






I may be confused, but are you trying to say that this was all Trayvon's fault because he decided to walk to the store?

That's what it looked like to me.


_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 414
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:18:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If George had stayed in/at his car, the boy would have made it home.
If Trayvon had stayed home, he would been home.

There would have been no incident.
There would have been no incident.


There is no denying that.
There is no denying that.




So now going to the store while black is a capital offence in your view?

Come on you have got to be reverse trolling admit it.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 415
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:21:11 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If George had stayed in/at his car, the boy would have made it home.
If Trayvon had stayed home, he would been home.

There would have been no incident.
There would have been no incident.


There is no denying that.
There is no denying that.




So now going to the store while black is a capital offence in your view?

Come on you have got to be reverse trolling admit it.

He didn't say black. Of course that means I just might go hungry tomorrow morning instead of heading out in a few to buy some bacon and eggs for in the morning.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 416
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:22:28 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I wouldn't go so far to say murder is legal in Florida, but that is indeed the standard. The prosecution is required to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt before before the jury can really even consider if the State has proven the elements of the crime.

Any evidence of self defense is as simple as Ziimerman's unsupported assertions.

Overcoming that beyond a reasonable doubt would require something like a video tape or multiple independent witnesses disputing the claims.

Murder is legal in Florida as long as you don't do it in front of a camera or a bunch of people who don't like you.

Hopefully Zimmerman gets convicted and then overturned at the appellate level so this can reach the federal courts. This standard is both ridiculous and unconstitutional.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 417
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:31:07 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Good NYT piece today:

The New York Times

June 28, 2013
The Zimmerman Trial
By CHARLES M. BLOW

This first week of testimony in the George Zimmerman trial has proved to be nothing short of fascinating.

On one level, the case is simple: if Zimmerman had not pursued — some say stalked — Trayvon Martin that dark, rainy night, Martin would still be alive.

That’s the logical argument. The legal one is more complex. The case, it seems to me, spins on some crucial questions, some of which we may never completely know the answers to.

What was it about Martin in particular that Zimmerman found “suspicious” in the first place? So far, there has been no testimony that Martin was doing anything other than walking slowly and talking on a phone to a girl, as teenage boys are wont to do. Did Zimmerman consider every person walking thusly in the neighborhood to be suspicious? If not, what made Martin different? Was some sort of bias at play, whether an explicit one or an implicit one?

Why did Zimmerman leave his car, armed with his gun, and follow Martin? When the dispatcher realized that Zimmerman was in pursuit and told him, “We don’t need you to do that,” did Zimmerman stop?

Did Martin know that he was being followed, as his friend Rachel Jeantel testified, and did he feel threatened by the stranger following him?

In fact, the threat levels are a larger, more complex issue altogether. Who felt threatened, the teenager with the candy and the soda or the man pursuing him with a gun and a live round in the chamber? The answer on the surface would seem obvious, but it’s possible that both felt some level of threat. It’s also possible that threat responses washed back and forth between them like water in a tub, neither of them knowing about the other what we know now — that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not.
---------

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/opinion/blow-the-zimmerman-trial.html?ref=opinion&_r=0&pagewanted=print

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 418
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:49:56 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.



Untrue. He spent several minutes on phone with dispatch not even knowing where Trayvon was before getting attacked 10 seconds jog away from his truck.

Based on the map here http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg
It looks to be about 400' by foot from the truck to where the altercation occurred.
If you can jog that in 10 seconds, the USOC wants you to sign up because there's gold in your future.


That map is wrong. The truck was parked by the sidewalk leading to the T.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 419
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/29/2013 1:50:42 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.



Untrue. He spent several minutes on phone with dispatch not even knowing where Trayvon was before getting attacked 10 seconds jog away from his truck.

Based on the map here http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg
It looks to be about 400' by foot from the truck to where the altercation occurred.
If you can jog that in 10 seconds, the USOC wants you to sign up because there's gold in your future.


That map is wrong. The truck was parked by the sidewalk leading to the T.


suuure it is.
Got a better one?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 420
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