RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE

RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 12:28:45 PM)
Bullshit, the duty to retreat and the castle doctrine are common law derived from English common law from at least the 1760's. Castle doctrine refutes the duty to retreat in your home. Thus the two concepts are in conflict. Castle doctrine also presumes that the victim can ascertain danger before being shot at or pummeled. Stand your ground merely assumes that you do not lose this ability when you leave your property. I find it interesting how much time is spent here blaming SYG when both the prosecution and the defense agree that it is not relevant.

DomKen -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 12:34:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Bullshit, the duty to retreat and the castle doctrine are common law derived from English common law from at least the 1760's. Castle doctrine refutes the duty to retreat in your home. Thus the two concepts are in conflict. Castle doctrine also presumes that the victim can ascertain danger before being shot at or pummeled. Stand your ground merely assumes that you do not lose this ability when you leave your property. I find it interesting how much time is spent here blaming SYG when both the prosecution and the defense agree that it is not relevant. The principle is that in your home there is no where to retreat. Outside your home you are supposed to try and avoid killing someone else except under the direst of circumstances. It both makes sense and worked for centuries.

lovmuffin -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 12:57:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: I'd go further and say the 9mm short and most of weapons made to fire it should only be carried by people who want to get killed What caliber/ammo do you prefer. I always yammered on and on about my dislike of, say, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .22 Mag, and any other cartridges such that the bullet would almost without fail exit the body of the target with enough remaining energy to kill someone else. Likewise ammo- FMJ, in many calibers, overpenetrates; hollow points and specialty (pre-fragmented) ammo impart more energy to the target, do more tissue damage to the target, and are less likely to pass through the target and kill an innocent bystander. I don't think very highly of handguns. If I had to carry I'd carry a 1911 in .45ACP. Yes, it would over penetrate but it is reliable and it will kill anyone I have to shoot. For home defense I prefer a .12 gauge. No, the 45 ACP would not over penetrate even with FMJ ammo. Also I'm wondering what a .20 caliber Saturday night special is that you mentioned on a previous post is ????

BamaD -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Bullshit, the duty to retreat and the castle doctrine are common law derived from English common law from at least the 1760's. Castle doctrine refutes the duty to retreat in your home. Thus the two concepts are in conflict. Castle doctrine also presumes that the victim can ascertain danger before being shot at or pummeled. Stand your ground merely assumes that you do not lose this ability when you leave your property. I find it interesting how much time is spent here blaming SYG when both the prosecution and the defense agree that it is not relevant. The principle is that in your home there is no where to retreat. Outside your home you are supposed to try and avoid killing someone else except under the direst of circumstances. It both makes sense and worked for centuries. You know why SYG is not relevant is that you can't retreat from a sucker punch or with someone sitting on you. Retreat does no good when the other guy is set on violence a sucker punch is a reasonable indication that he isn't concerned with your well being jumping on you and beating you would tend to deepen that belief.

tazzygirl -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:03:49 PM)
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2013/0628/Who-was-on-top-in-Zimmerman-Martin-tussle-Witness-testimony-in-conflict

truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:09:41 PM)
quote: TRAYVON MARTIN HAS NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF ANY CRIME. Yes he has. George Zimmerman accused him of assaulting him. Martin was not charged because it is not customary to charge the deceased.

kdsub -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:14:35 PM)
I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense? Butch

jlf1961 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:15:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: TRAYVON MARTIN HAS NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF ANY CRIME. Yes he has. George Zimmerman accused him of assaulting him. Martin was not charged because it is not customary to charge the deceased. Of course, we cant get Trayvon Martin's side of the story since, conveniently he was shot and killed....

truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:15:36 PM)
quote: What are you going to do when you suspect someone is in your house? Carry it in a holster? No. Any logical person can see that. 1. If there is no unauthorized person there, clearly brandishing has not occurred because... there's no one there. 2. If there is an unauthorized person there, you are justified in drawing the firearm. I suppose that in situation #1 your wife or child could press charges in some state or other; but generally it seems clear that inside your home is a special case even in those states that do not address that case specifically. But drawing a gun elsewhere, absent a reasonable threat, is a really bad idea.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:19:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense? Butch Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Think back and remember all the pressure being brought to bear on Sanford PD and the DA's office. One police chief gone and one prosecutor (at least replaced but I think he was dismissed) gone. All the wild, unfounded accusations of collusion. Prosecuting the case is C.Y.O.A. on two fronts. God bless the race baiters! Peace and comfort, Michael

jlf1961 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:22:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense? Butch Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Think back and remember all the pressure being brought to bear on Sanford PD and the DA's office. One police chief gone and one prosecutor (at least replaced but I think he was dismissed) gone. All the wild, unfounded accusations of collusion. Prosecuting the case is C.Y.O.A. on two fronts. God bless the race baiters! Peace and comfort, Michael And people think I am crazy for thinking the verdict is predetermined and Zimmerman is going to walk which will lead to race riots all over the country?

truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:23:00 PM)
I provided the Fl definition of stalking and ag stalking in a previous post. Some people are determined to ignore that definition. It was not charged. It is not an element of murder. It is not a reduced charge to murder. It is in no way alleged by the state. It is a straw man, already destroyed.

truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:25:51 PM)
No no no no no no It's proof he was a reckless cowboy

Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:26:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave . But drawing a gun elsewhere, absent a reasonable threat, is a really bad idea. I'd call in the dark, on neutral ground or your property suspecting one or more criminals in the immediate vicinity is a reasonable threat.

truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:33:34 PM)
Actually, a .45 is my choice but it doesn't overpenetrate. In fact, while I use hollowpoints or MagSafe in my first magazine, my spares are always FMJ. Two reasons. 1. Going to a second or subsequent magazine may mean the firearm has already malfunctioned (i.e. jammed), and FMJ is always more reliable. 2. Going to a second or subsequent magazine may mean an ongoing firefight, which may well mean a barricaded suspect and a need for as much penetration as possible from that slow, fat .45 caliber round.

kdsub -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:33:40 PM)
quote: And people think I am crazy for thinking the verdict is predetermined and Zimmerman is going to walk which will lead to race riots all over the country? I believe the police were correct when they said there was no crime to begin with... Then the pressure started coming from both citizens that knew nothing of the case except it was white on black and politicians. To keep their jobs they charged and are prosecuting Zimmerman knowing there is no way they can convict him... There just is not a case and so far the evidence presented backs that up. PS.. You are right about riots when and if he is found not guilty... Not only did the legislature of Florida screw up with this law that is not well thought out...but they may also have caused the riots that will surely follow after he is found not guilty... by forcing the prosecution. Butch

BamaD -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:34:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense? Butch Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Think back and remember all the pressure being brought to bear on Sanford PD and the DA's office. One police chief gone and one prosecutor (at least replaced but I think he was dismissed) gone. All the wild, unfounded accusations of collusion. Prosecuting the case is C.Y.O.A. on two fronts. God bless the race baiters! Peace and comfort, Michael Has it occurred to anyone that the state is demonstrating why they didn't file charges in the first place, no case?

cloudboy -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:34:35 PM)
Maybe the trouble with the Zimmerman case is the lack of a proper criminal designation. Zimmerman to me (from the outside) did not commit a depraved act as much as either a criminally reckless / negligent one. He also had impaired judgment about having a firearm. Firearms make confrontations worse and deadly. Disputes and confrontations are best without any firearms involved. Firearms are not really a tool of safety and self protection -- they are weapons most likely to cause irreversible, unintended consequences. (Killing a spouse, child or member of the family, killing an innocent person, of being used to commit suicide.) P.S. I do see how you can make the case he had a depraved heart, I'm just not so sure a jury will buy it (if it sympathizes with him at all.) This two way tragedy was mostly caused by Zimmerman carrying a firearm when he didn't need one. P.S. II I intend to let the jury sort out the facts. To me the facts are in dispute.

BamaD -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:37:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: And people think I am crazy for thinking the verdict is predetermined and Zimmerman is going to walk which will lead to race riots all over the country? I believe the police were correct when they said there was no crime to begin with... Then the pressure started coming from both citizens that knew nothing of the case except it was white on black and politicians. To keep their jobs they charged and are prosecuting Zimmerman knowing there is no way they can convict him... There just is not a case and so far the evidence presented backs that up. PS.. You are right about riots when and if he is found not guilty... Not only did the legislature of Florida screw up with this law that is not well thought out...but they may also have caused the riots that will surely follow after he is found not guilty... by forcing the prosecution. Butch I mostly agree except for one thing. SYG is not in play. Attempts to pretend it is indicates a desire to repeal it on false grounds. This is not to question your motives but rather the motives of your sources.

cloudboy -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 1:39:23 PM)
quote: I believe the police were correct when they said there was no crime to begin with... Then the pressure started coming from both citizens that knew nothing of the case except it was white on black and politicians. To keep their jobs they charged and are prosecuting Zimmerman knowing there is no way they can convict him... There just is not a case and so far the evidence presented backs that up. 17 year old child is walking home in his own neighborhood. A third party aggressor follows him, an altercation ensues, and the aggressor shoots the unarmed child dead. What role did race have? If the child had been white, criminal charges would have been filed immediately.

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