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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 11:09:20 AM   
Rawni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

WTF? And how the fuck am I to sleep at night without drugs???


Blow jobs.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 11:10:30 AM   
mnottertail


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Whew. I knew there was some science in here somewhere.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 12:25:48 PM   
evesgrden


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You haven't simplified it enough.

BDSM extends life.

kinda puts the RACK vs SSC debate to bed, don't it

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 12:38:00 PM   
SwitchNSpanky


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From only the OP. bro. I'd say your over and under thinking this whole thing. You gotta go deep and see it from all sides. Be an uninvolved observer if you can.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 12:53:01 PM   
Missokyst


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Ugh..., immortality?
I don't want to live forever. I want to enjoy my life, my sexuality, and all that other good stuff. I hope when I die I am still young enough to recall all the wonderful things I got to do because I DID them, not analyzed them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: galleyslave

thanks for answering. Actually I just wasn't quite ready to receive so many replies which (though mostly disagreeing with my statements) show that people are interested in the matter. I just wanted to start this topic with one clear intention: to find individuals willing to discover a genuine anti-aging BDSM technique, doesnt matter whose ideas it would use if it works out! I can't believe BDSM exists with no purpose. I guess so many BDSMers already tried to find such a way to immortality or just "immortality", but failed because they used too little scientific knowledge. Now, with a great understanding of our bodies we possess and computers to assist, the time to make a "BDSM breakthrough" possibly came -- people also couldn't fly until some equations and engines were provided by scientists



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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 1:03:46 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: galleyslave

I guess so many BDSMers already tried to find such a way to immortality or just "immortality", but failed because they used too little scientific knowledge. Now, with a great understanding of our bodies we possess and computers to assist, the time to make a "BDSM breakthrough" possibly came -- people also couldn't fly until some equations and engines were provided by scientists


Dude, I only know of one other person who is into BDSM and trying to achieve immortality, maybe you should talk to her, because the rest of us are just trying to be happy and get off.

I personally don't give a rats ass about achieving immortality, though I wouldn't turn it down either if somebody else figures it out.

So yeah... good luck with that.

As far as the entirety of the rest of your posts goes... utter nonsense of the most ridiculous kind I think I've ever seen come around these boards.

Yet at the same time, if you really think that, pain, suffering, and tiredness will lead you to immortality, feel free to hit me up on the other side... I'm in the middle of a major landscaping project and need to have several tons of Colorado clay soil moved by hand... I wouldn't mind keeping you sore, tired and in pain for a loooong time to come...


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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 1:05:02 PM   
mnottertail


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I tried to achieve immortality once, but Moderator 11 told me to knock it off.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 1:15:26 PM   
LadyPact


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Fast reply......

I'm all for understanding what happens in the body and the brain while engaging in BDSM. Chemical reactions, endorphins, adrenaline, etc. A working knowledge of such helps us to understand phenomenons such as space, drop, and other experiences that can be related to play.

I'm not, however, the type to attempt over analyzing this stuff to death. I didn't read the links. In truth, I didn't wade through the entire original. The jumps to illogical conclusions got to Me be the end of the second paragraph after the references.

If you are feeling like this theory works for you, OP, that's wonderful. However, isn't there just a part of you that feels you could have invested the same amount of time actually engaging in BDSM for fun and felt the time was better spent?


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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 2:51:32 PM   
SeekingTrinity


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~FRing it~

Like Lady Pact, I too am interested in body reaction brought on by BDSM. As I possess a degree in both psychology and molecular/microbiology, it's right up my alley.

OP, HOWEVER my honest opinion is that immortality through BDSM or any other means just isn't realistic. From the day we are born, the clock starts ticking. Im of the honest opinion, based on scientific research Ive looked at, that the very mechanism used to sustain our life is the very thing that does us in. We exist by the process of DNA replication...for everything. I'm serious...EVERYTHING. As our DNA replicates, we lose a little bit of the original with each copy of our DNA that is made. This takes place in the area of DNA known as telomeres. To say nothing of the fact that our DNA can also be either damaged or mutated, but that's another story for another day.

So basically what it boils down to is that one day our cells just stop replicating. Cells start dying and the body is just not able to produce new cells to replace the ones that die. The cascade towards death begins and there isn't anything, BDSM or otherwise, that's going to stop it.

For the rest, sorry if I bored you to an early death with my scientific musings

I think that BDSM's purpose is very unique to each one of us. For me, it is what it is and I just enjoy it for that reason. It's who I am, it's what I like. But it's not going to make me live forever. I'm here for the party and to live my life to the fullest while Im here. And then become worm chow once the powers that be tell me my time is done. I'm okay with that.


< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 7/3/2013 3:03:56 PM >

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 3:43:52 PM   
ResidentSadist


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I appreciate your enthusiasm, and there are many decent scientific papers written about BDSM and/or sadomasochism, but your post sounds like you have no real world experience to judge the reality of what you are saying. Did you ever consider how saying "sadomasochism as one complex biological phenomenon evolution provided the human species with for self-improvement" would sound to sane people? Lets refine that statement. Since all things have "evolved" to the state they are currently in, saying that is redundant. Basically you are saying "sadomasochism for self-improvement" . . . Seriously? You're serious or this is a strange hoax?

Despite all you semantic gymnastics, you do not manage to connect sadomasochism and self-improvement. I am sorry but training, response and discipline, with or without punishment, in or out of the lifestyle, has not one damn thing to do with sadomasochism. You seem to be desperately trying to connect two disjointed things with pretzel logic and it fails terribly.



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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 4:43:12 PM   
DarkSteven


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If I ever invented a way to achieve immortality, it would take forever to prove it.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 5:11:45 PM   
RemoteUser


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Let's be clear from the outset, here. I'm breaking this down for my own edification. If I have to wade into a swamp, I have every intention of applying all of my observational powers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: galleyslave

modern science tries to study BDSM as just a sexually arranged transformation of usually/regularly/non-sexually unpleasant activities and experiences into pleasure


Bit misleading, that. "Modern science" without indicating persons or an established organization is what Mr. Wiki rightfully calls "weasel words". Like saying "most people" (which people? what sources?), it is a mechanism for justification, not study.

quote:

we can easily agree that no complex phenomena like BDSM could appear merely by accident, with no proper application and purpose.


Also misleading, assumption through artificial agreement. Still not scientific, more like rhetoric.

quote:

If we try to classify each activity of a human being as "healthy" and "unhealthy", any classification of that sort would depend on what result we'll consider "ultimate".


"We" are not classifying, "you" are asking the reader to agree with your definitions. Since I don't, that rather nullifies most of the rest of your very long paragraph.

quote:

"healthiness", actually, is just some mathematical function in the precise parameters of the physical training, whipping, and other BDSM activities involved.


Which function are we using? Are we measuring joules of energy expended; muscle mass increase; lung capacity; general endurance? There are more options, but I think that's quite enough to make the point salient, which is: you need to define this generalization, which also seems to bear no citations or supporting rationalizations.

quote:

While some "summands" may damage the body


Math doesn't physically injure people, but some find it quite painful nonetheless. If you are referring to ratios, then a point of reference is still required for any assessment to be made.

quote:

Such an optimization task, I suppose, might be even formulated as a minimax problem (one of the principal mathematical terms related to the continuous optimization theory)


Continuous optimization requires variables, real or hypothetical, which means having reference points and a method of measurement to determine change in terms like "better" or "detrimental".

quote:

no other biological species are able to combine so many activities


If multitasking is defined as merely physical, you would be sadly mistaken. There are many creatures that are more physically complex and equally astute on this great green earth.

quote:

Secondly, the role of hormones in BDSM may be re-considered or, to formulate more precisely, determined with a greater accuracy too.


Hormones are a chemical reaction to a form of stimulus. Determination of hormonal secretion only defines their existence; the reasoning applied to defining the stimulus in the scientific method would involve the removal of all other forms of stimulus for verification. How would you propose to do that?

quote:

subconsciously we (actually each of the human beings) are just looking for the "optimal ordeals" not causing any permanent damage


The human condition and its relation to acts of self-destruction, not to mention the existence of aberrations at the individual level, refutes this. Nietzsche approaches this thought the closest, and he does not define humans by what they face, but how they face it, in determining their worth.

quote:

it's well known that the probability of becoming interested in BDSM depends on the person's intelligence and even education.


This assumes that no one who shows interest in BDSM can be stupid or uneducated. Sadly, real life does not reflect this.

In regards to immortality through BDSM, as you posited in a further post, I would have to wonder whether you mean through legacy or actuality. Those with a pregnancy fetish might certainly be validated in the former; the latter presumes an actual halt in the natural decay of anything made by two or more atoms being smooshed together. Suspending entropy indefinitely is in direct opposition to the known laws of physics, regardless of summands, hormones, or intellect.

I feel that your piece might be construed as philosophical from its assumptive approach with no empirical data, in which case, there is plenty to discuss in regards to theorization. The science, I am afraid, is lacking. I am interested to see whether you have any responses for the commentary I have provided you for discussion purposes.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 6:41:54 PM   
galleyslave


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yes, you're right. That's precisely what I meant. Nobody yet did BDSM a right scientific way, it's no simple. Did you read my story (about galley training) at the Creative Writing section? The BDSM with the goal funcion of struggling aging may have a special form, though resembling some classic ones, but with different attitudes: people would do it not only for pleasure and pleasure itself would be considered as a tool

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 6:55:12 PM   
MissToYouRedux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

You haven't simplified it enough.

BDSM extends life...



While I don't know about that, does BDSM keep me young? Hell, yes.

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 7:01:37 PM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: galleyslave

yes, you're right. That's precisely what I meant. Nobody yet did BDSM a right scientific way, it's no simple. Did you read my story (about galley training) at the Creative Writing section? The BDSM with the goal funcion of struggling aging may have a special form, though resembling some classic ones, but with different attitudes: people would do it not only for pleasure and pleasure itself would be considered as a tool


If you're going to use the scientific method, follow the method.

1. Ask the questions. Be very clear with the questions. It seems English is not your first language, and also very rough for you, so you will need to make extra effort for English speaking people to understand you.

2. Give a hypothesis. It may be the language barrier, but I saw no hypothesis. Try wording it differently.

3. Predict outcomes. You never offered multiple outcomes, and never linked your possible outcomes to the methods that your hypothesis should have explained.

4. Test. You performed no tests, quoted no testing done by others, in short offered zero empirical data. This is required.

5. Analyze the results. Explain the data once you get it. Explain how it did or didn't match your predictions. Explain whether it proves your hypothesis right or wrong.

One more thing: if you want to prove immortality by scientific method, you are doomed to fail because you cannot prove something unless it has begun and ended. Immortality does not end.


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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 7:17:57 PM   
galleyslave


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people often try to connect (usually) inconnectable and sometimes, though strange, they succeed. Actually it's the principal way to create something new and efficient. I would dare to say even some really stupid (you may deem) thing: if such a BDSM anti-aging mechanics would really work out and become somewhat popular, many those vanilla girls and boys would start feeling a certain attraction to BDSM as the nature gave this secret attraction to everybiody as everybody wants to stay young as long as he/she wishes. Besides, now vanilla people are afraid of BDSM precisely because they think it's a way of self-destruction; if the science proves that doing it right is the most healthy way of life then everyone not involved in the "healthy" BDSM would feel he/she loses something extremely important, like now people think about .... sport. By the way, just think about sport: those tormenting themselves with "classic" various physial traning, ain't they masochists in reality? Is sport the most primitive "healthy" BDSM? No other animal but the human posseses such a strange (from the purely biological point of view) feature as the attraction to "unmotivated" physical exhaustion, no other animal is able to re-shape its body through physical exersices!

Scintists all the time try to invent a miracle pill for your rejuvenation, but nobody even tried to think about BDSM as a field of anti-aging action: some reseaches show that up to 50 % (!!!) of population feel certain attraction to BDSM, up to 10% practice it (in the Western countries) -- and still it's considered as a purely social/psychological phenomenon having no connection to the principal secrets of human physiology and aging. So are you surprised that that the science can't promice you anything regarding staying young at least a little bit longer then you were supposed to a thousand years ago?

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 8:06:08 PM   
galleyslave


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first of l thank you for your detailed answer. Let me now comment it even more "mathematically" just to avoid any further misunderstanding. It's not so difficult to arange a goal function: it would be just ... a biological age (there is a variety of formulas, and I have my own one, but let's leave it, for the moment being, out the frames of the present discussion). The chosen biological age would be the function's value, while its variables can be chosen from a wide set including the length of daily training (if it's a monotone training like a galley slave rowing; for simplicity, let's now take just this model), the strength and number of strokes (actually the whole regime of whipping for bad rowing), the forms of other punishments, the foods etc. In my story published at the Creative Writing section which is yet to be continued, a 35. y. old woman is going to have a home galley-slave self-training with a special apparatus imitating a real hold slavery at an oar. The apparatus has a number of parameters the user is supposed to enter, and gradually, day after day, the female will find the best appropriate regime. One day she would decide to program her "slavery" for several days running, another day (when already being fit enough)-- for several weeks. She would study her organism (taking all the precaution measures for the safety as total as possible) for a protracted period of time, and the best goal function she would follow to optimize will be just ... her reflection in the mirrow. Yes, it's so difficult to formalize your astisfaction from looking at your own reflection... Anyhow, what I just described is a precise construction, and you certainly can't call it a form of philosofy. I believe it will work out if installed properly. Besides, it of course doen't exclude the "classic" forms of "collective" BDSM, i.e (in my case) some forced rowing or other hard monotone labour with "slaves" and "overseers" -- one slave and one overseer, ten slaves and one overseer, 50 slaves and two overseers etc., there are so any options, so many parameters and everything depends on whether there would be people ready to practice it with the purpose oftrying to find an anti-aging way in BDSM like Columbus tried to find a path to Asia (nobody guaranteed but everyone hoped)

< Message edited by galleyslave -- 7/3/2013 9:03:13 PM >

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 8:37:33 PM   
galleyslave


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yes, you're right that English isn't my first language and, when quickly answering questions, it becomes much more noticeable than when writing properly, thinking about each word. But i still assume not the language is the problem, but the fact that people aren't going to think about the purpose of BDSM. You say about tests, but for tests I need people, and I won't have people unless I convince them. Looks like a cycle... You also say I have no hypothesis. No, I do have one. My hypothesis is that there is a form of monotone forced BDSM labour which would lead to re-juvenation! You can call this hypotheis stupid, or rong, or crazy, or whatever, but you already can't claim there is no hypothesis. However, this form of forced BDSM labour may be strictly individual (concerning its parameters) for each one (i mean each masochist, but, perhaps, for every person not hostile to BDSM) and to find it isn't that easy -- at least, we should involve some science and some programmed equipment, computers etc. But, let me repeat it please, the principal difficulty is that nearly nobody wants to think about anti-aging when thiking about BDSM and pleasure, though many people still do consider BDSM as a way to grow muscles, loose weight etc. "Whip me into shape" is a popular saying, but I never met anybody saying "whip me into youth"...

About hormones: nobody yet studied how certain activities like BDSM influence your blood, though it's very easy to measure. Hormones, to my mind, is a chief mediator between the human activities, the human physiology and the human psychology.
Once formalized, each complex biological problem becomes more understandable and, accordingly, sovable. I'm just looking for similarly minded people ready to do at least something in that direction

< Message edited by galleyslave -- 7/3/2013 8:50:35 PM >

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 8:58:15 PM   
galleyslave


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and, of course, I don't try to reach immortality, you're right, immortality is just an abstract cathegory ... unlike anti-aging. People do understand what struggling aging means and, actually, quite believe it's still possible to a certain degree

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RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm - 7/3/2013 10:13:06 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

About hormones: nobody yet studied how certain activities like BDSM influence your blood, though it's very easy to measure. Hormones, to my mind, is a chief mediator between the human activities, the human physiology and the human psychology.


Seems they have

http://pubget.com/paper/18563549/hormonal-changes-and-couple-bonding-in-consensual-sadomasochistic-activity

http://www.niu.edu/user/tj0bjs1/papers/scclm09.pdf

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21395

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