some scientific thoughts about bdsm

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galleyslave -> some scientific thoughts about bdsm (6/29/2013 8:57:21 AM)
First of all, I consider sadomasochism as one complex biological phenomenon the evolution provided the human (as a species) with for self-improvement. As far as we know, no other biological species were yet given such a mechanism (like a pain-into-pleasure, or humiliation-into-pleasure, or tiredness-into pleasure etc. transformation assisted by hormones). Let me just refer to a number of web sources (some of them you may well-know, though) http://www.rosecoloredasses.com/sirreal/bdsmscience.htm http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/27326-bdsm-and-biochemistry/ http://ru.scribd.com/doc/26957524/BDSM-Psychobiology But the principal thing, in my opinion, is that the modern science tries to study BDSM as just a sexually arranged transformation of usually/regularly/non-sexually unpleasant activities and experiences into pleasure, while I suggest to understand it as an evolutionarily developed mechanism of the organism's self-strengthening and, by the way, fighting against aging. If we still assume the human to be the most perfect living being we're aware of, we can easily agree that no complex phenomena like BDSM could appear merely by accident, with no proper application and purpose. If we try to classify each activity of a human being as "healthy" and "unhealthy", any classification of that sort would depend on what result we'll consider "ultimate". While some seemingly "unhealthy" BDSM activities like whipping etc. may be classified as, say, "not very healthy" (depending on the whipping's form, though), when combined with a kind of forced physical training, they become somewhat a whole new complex activity whose "healthiness", actually, is just some mathematical function in the precise parameters of the physical training, whipping, and other BDSM activities involved. Hence we can talk about such a very delicate notion as the summation of activities. Generally speaking, BDSM itself is a sum of the sexual activity and "causing pain, discomfort and tiredness" coupled with, say, humiliation and other purely mental activities. While some "summands" may damage the body, the whole sum is often what the person needs for eventually feeling better and just becoming healthy in the common medical sense! A masochist's brain quite often subconsciously solves an extremely complex optimization problem of finding the best sum of activities whose parameter vector satisfies his/her organism's needs in the best possible way! Such an optimization task, I suppose, might be even formulated as a minimax problem (one of the principal mathematical terms related to the continuous optimization theory). By the way, we can also notice that the "summation" of quite a number of activities is inherent exclusively to the human as a species as well, no other biological species are able to combine so many activities and hence we can consider the activity summation as an evolutionary "trend". Secondly, the role of hormones in BDSM may be re-considered or, to formulate more precisely, determined with a greater accuracy too. While the hormonal mechanisms standing behind the pain-into-pleasure and similar transformations are already pretty clear to scientists, the hormonal processes caused by certain "purely psychological" BDSM phenomena like those happening inside the bodies of dominant partners, or submissives awaiting a "punishment", or just sadomasochists (including switches) looking at an S/M picture or watching an S/M movie, were not yet, I guess, studied so rigorously. My conjecture is that all the just-mentioned hormonal processes are of nearly the same nature and their purpose is a preparation of the body for the pain-into-pleasure and similar hormonal processes and, actually, a pain/discomfort itself. Yes, though strange, it concerns "pure" sexual sadists and dominants as well! The nature didn't yet invent a better mechanism for strengthening a body than undergoing certain "ordeals" , and subconsciously we (actually each of the human beings) are just looking for the "optimal ordeals" not causing any permanent damage, somewhat like "the hardest healthy ordeals" (if we wish to formulate it in the minimax language), or, a funny thing, "the best ordeals"... :)). By the way, it's well known that the probability of becoming interested in BDSM depends on the person's intelligence and even education. The intensity of one's brain work influences his/her "highest sexuality" aimed at self-improvement, not reproductivity. I just want to emphasize all the complexity of the interconnection and interaction between psychology and physiology in humans and the role of sexuality as a chief mediator between these two fundamental groups of activities. And we should also suppose, I think, that every activity, either psychological or physiological, does have its own hormonal "reflection" in our blood, so that hormones always play a special mediator role that, actually, can be well-registered by the modern medical devices hence allowing to formalize such an infinitely complex human phenomenon as BDSM.

ForgetToRemember -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 12:23:55 AM)
I think in order to truly understand BDSM scientifically you must break it down more. For example there is the pain to pleasure response that sadists and masochists feel. Then there is the 'butterflies' or surreal feeling that subs and doms have prior to playing. I don't know that they are all interconnected, but more likely separate (which would also account for why some people like certain fetishes compared to others). I could see a large amount of these hormones depending on different schools of BDSM (Pain, D/s, Bondage / no control, physical stimulation, mental stimulation etc). I do not think that the same hormones working during a hard whipping are also present during something like public humiliation or babying. If these hormones existed in all of us (which I don't think is quite right), then anyone could experience the same pleasure from public humiliation as someone who is a hardcore lover of public humiliation. This brings into play the Psychological vs Physiological argument of BDSM. Can we feel pleasure purely from psychological means (no chemical reactions happening)? If so, we can clearly define BDSM as falling into BOTH a physiological (possibly evolutionary) process, and a psychological process (dependent on the individual, possibly upbringing) since we know of the hormonal processes involved already and also have the evidence of psychological pleasure. I am leaning towards the both school of thought myself (as I have been a lover of Sadomasochism since I was very young) as well as the 'knowledge' or upbringing that expanded my interests in BDSM which grant me a different kind of pleasure.

petitespot -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 3:46:57 AM)
Wow. I just like to get tied up and beat before I'm fucked. It makes me really wet. That's as scientific as I can get.

DarkSteven -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 3:52:44 AM)
I don't agree, galleyslave. 1. You are looking at BDSM as a purely chemical response to stimuli, and the orientation is toward the bottom. When I top, I do things my bottom likes, but I don't optimize her experience. I optimize what I want to do, keeping in mind that I want her to get something from it and of course operate within her limits. 2. One of the reasons I session is that I know that my sub is "off" and needs a session to cleanse her. Your proposed experiments simply measure a bottom's state immediately before and during a session. The fact that her mental state beforehand, which was the reason for the session in the first place, is not measured, bothers me. 3. As ForgetToRemember said, you're narrowly defining this as impact play sessions, and not accounting for furry play, ageplay, bondage only scenes, etc. 4. Your last paragraph could be rephrased "What does not kill us makes us stronger."

MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 5:45:50 AM)
How familiar are you with the Uncertainty Principle? Anything you watch watches you back. Don't stare into the void too long because the void may stare back at you.

tazzygirl -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 6:23:18 AM)
~FR The more science tries to figure us out, the more religion will want to cure us.

ARIES83 -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 6:24:57 AM)
I really dislike posts that quote and pick apart someones comments... but I think in this case your post really deserves it... So here goes... quote: ORIGINAL: galleyslave First of all, I consider sadomasochism as one complex biological phenomenon the evolution provided the human (as a species) with for self-improvement. As far as we know, no other biological species were yet given such a mechanism (like a pain-into-pleasure, or humiliation-into-pleasure, or tiredness-into pleasure etc. transformation assisted by hormones). Let me just refer to a number of web sources (some of them you may well-know, though) ...you mean as far as you know... "tiredness into pleasure" "Pain into pleasure"... your referring to endorphins. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that mammals at least all have some endorphin response... and I'm pretty confidant there would also be some basic animal analogues of a lot of our emotional/psychological responses. http://www.rosecoloredasses.com/sirreal/bdsmscience.htm http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/27326-bdsm-and-biochemistry/ http://ru.scribd.com/doc/26957524/BDSM-Psychobiology But the principal thing, in my opinion, is that the modern science tries to study BDSM as just a sexually arranged transformation of usually/regularly/non-sexually unpleasant activities and experiences into pleasure, while I suggest to understand it as an evolutionarily developed mechanism of the organism's self-strengthening and, by the way, fighting against aging. If we still assume the human to be the most perfect living being we're aware of, we can easily agree that no complex phenomena like BDSM could appear merely by accident, with no proper application and purpose. "Most perfect living being we're aware of..." Why in the world would you assume that... we have a pretty good brain, besides that theres nothing particularly great about humans IMO, besides boobs... they're great... especially when they're perfect... but apart from that I've got no idea what you think is so self-evidently amazing about the purpose of BDSM. If we try to classify each activity of a human being as "healthy" and "unhealthy", any classification of that sort would depend on what result we'll consider "ultimate". While some seemingly "unhealthy" BDSM activities like whipping etc. may be classified as, say, "not very healthy" (depending on the whipping's form, though), when combined with a kind of forced physical training, they become somewhat a whole new complex activity whose "healthiness", actually, is just some mathematical function in the precise parameters of the physical training, whipping, and other BDSM activities involved. Hence we can talk about such a very delicate notion as the summation of activities. Generally speaking, BDSM itself is a sum of the sexual activity and "causing pain, discomfort and tiredness" coupled with, say, humiliation and other purely mental activities. While some "summands" may damage the body, the whole sum is often what the person needs for eventually feeling better and just becoming healthy in the common medical sense! A masochist's brain quite often subconsciously solves an extremely complex optimization problem of finding the best sum of activities whose parameter vector satisfies his/her organism's needs in the best possible way! Such an optimization task, I suppose, might be even formulated as a minimax problem (one of the principal mathematical terms related to the continuous optimization theory). By the way, we can also notice that the "summation" of quite a number of activities is inherent exclusively to the human as a species as well, no other biological species are able to combine so many activities and hence we can consider the activity summation as an evolutionary "trend". I'll read that a few more times... but I'm pretty sure thats twisty turny craziness and... "parameter vector" "optimization problem " "principal mathematical terms " "mathematical function in the precise parameters"......... The Fuck are you doing? trying to write software for the space shuttle?! Secondly, the role of hormones in BDSM may be re-considered or, to formulate more precisely, determined with a greater accuracy too. While the hormonal mechanisms standing behind the pain-into-pleasure and similar transformations are already pretty clear to scientists, the hormonal processes caused by certain "purely psychological" BDSM phenomena like those happening inside the bodies of dominant partners, or submissives awaiting a "punishment", or just sadomasochists (including switches) looking at an S/M picture or watching an S/M movie, were not yet, I guess, studied so rigorously. My conjecture is that all the just-mentioned hormonal processes are of nearly the same nature and their purpose is a preparation of the body for the pain-into-pleasure and similar hormonal processes and, actually, a pain/discomfort itself. Yes, though strange, it concerns "pure" sexual sadists and dominants as well! The nature didn't yet invent a better mechanism for strengthening a body than undergoing certain "ordeals" , and subconsciously we (actually each of the human beings) are just looking for the "optimal ordeals" not causing any permanent damage, somewhat like "the hardest healthy ordeals" (if we wish to formulate it in the minimax language), or, a funny thing, "the best ordeals"... :)). By the way, it's well known that the probability of becoming interested in BDSM depends on the person's intelligence and even education. The intensity of one's brain work influences his/her "highest sexuality" aimed at self-improvement, not reproductivity. I just want to emphasize all the complexity of the interconnection and interaction between psychology and physiology in humans and the role of sexuality as a chief mediator between these two fundamental groups of activities. And we should also suppose, I think, that every activity, either psychological or physiological, does have its own hormonal "reflection" in our blood, so that hormones always play a special mediator role that, actually, can be well-registered by the modern medical devices hence allowing to formalize such an infinitely complex human phenomenon as BDSM. dewd... Theres a lot of psychological and physiological stuff going on, I agree.... and the body and the mind are connected in some cool ways... I'm still not sure where your going with most of that stuff though... if it's this> "First of all, I consider sadomasochism as one complex biological phenomenon the evolution provided the human (as a species) with for self-improvement." I'm not really convinced... yet one could certainly make a case for it...

SimplyMichael -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 7:08:13 AM)
To anyone with even a basic grasp of psychology or physiology, his whole post is hokum.

DesFIP -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 7:16:54 AM)
Considering I don't do pain nor humiliation, his post is obviously not based in fact. Because if it were, every bottom would be experiencing 'pain, discomfort and tiredness'. The fact that many of us don't do this shows his basic assumptions to be wrong. I'm usually tired afterwards but I know some people are usually energized. But hell, some people are usually tired after working out, so what does this prove?

sexyred1 -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 7:52:46 AM)
Again with the over analyzing. I guess this might be a new fetish, trying to quantify something that does not need to be looked at scientifically. Knock yourself out trying to fit this into a box.

Rawni -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 8:10:00 AM)
He posted this in Creative Writing about a week ago. I read it then. No comment. [:D]

leonine -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 8:24:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael To anyone with even a basic grasp of psychology or physiology, his whole post is hokum. Agreed. Any attempt to reduce sexuality to body chemistry is missing the most important organ involved. There's a reason the species with the biggest brain has the most varied and complex sexual behaviour.

galleyslave -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 9:24:49 AM)
thanks for answering. Actually I just wasn't quite ready to receive so many replies which (though mostly disagreeing with my statements) show that people are interested in the matter. I just wanted to start this topic with one clear intention: to find individuals willing to discover a genuine anti-aging BDSM technique, doesnt matter whose ideas it would use if it works out! I can't believe BDSM exists with no purpose. I guess so many BDSMers already tried to find such a way to immortality or just "immortality", but failed because they used too little scientific knowledge. Now, with a great understanding of our bodies we possess and computers to assist, the time to make a "BDSM breakthrough" possibly came -- people also couldn't fly until some equations and engines were provided by scientists

SimplyMichael -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 9:56:01 AM)
Uh, two bicycle mechanics did it... And you sir are no bicycle mechanic!

evesgrden -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 10:13:18 AM)
Let me know when we get to the science part.

galleyslave -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 10:15:03 AM)
no craziness is crazy enough in BDSM to be considred mad

galleyslave -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 10:19:20 AM)
i just suggested a somewhat new language to talk about BDSM and a way to use it. Different people have different thoughts, even when speaking one language

Rawni -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 11:02:51 AM)
ROFLMAO... No, what you want is kudos for being the brilliance of something.. haven't guite figured that out yet... but when you go to be some brilliant something or other... you might want to use your own fucking research and have it actually be real research and not interpretations and evaluations from others. Your hypothesis needs a bit more to be proven as science and as you can see, takes little to be trashed.

mnottertail -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 11:05:09 AM)
WTF? And how the fuck am I to sleep at night without drugs???

MasterCaneman -> RE: some scientific thoughts about bdsm (7/3/2013 11:08:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: galleyslave I just wanted to start this topic with one clear intention: to find individuals willing to discover a genuine anti-aging BDSM technique, I guess so many BDSMers already tried to find such a way to immortality or just "immortality", Let me get this right-you're promulgating this hogwash as a means of biological life-extension? In simpler terms "People who do BDSM the scientific way will live forever?", or am I over simplifying it?

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