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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/1/2013 7:46:17 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

It was a real shocker to me when I started travelling abroad and found out that the police being giant assholes was not a universal phenomenon.


Consumer awareness can be a bottleneck in any system.

For instance, I was recently made aware that parts of the USA experience blackouts several times a year due to excess load on the grid. From what I hear, some people accept this as a normal thing. To me, this is a completely alien concept. I've never experienced a blackout for any other reasons than scheduled maintenance (a couple of times per decade) or serious infrastructural damage (e.g. hurricanes, also rare), and I can't remember the last time it happened for one of those reasons.

Similarly, going to the doctor here, you pay $25 or so for 45 minutes with the doctor. The average patient takes up about 15 minutes, and most doctors will simply take the time they need without looking at the watch. Nurses and secretaries in general will not be interacting with you unless you're dropping by the lab, except to take your name on arrival. You meet the doctor straight away in his office (one for each doctor, plus the lab and the surgery). He'll talk to you, including some smalltalk, get a feel for your context and history (in addition to what's on the computer), and discuss options, outcomes, lifestyle and so forth. He obviously remembers your name and general history. Unless you ask for a paper copy, any Rx will be digitally filed with the central registry, and you can pick it up at any pharmacy. Similar things go for referrals.

[Lots of examples cut on editing.]

Asshole police occur. I know this, because they're such obvious exceptions that you can't fail to notice them. The regular police are essentially some of the calmest people around, with a good sense of humor, a willingness to work things out, a firm grasp of how to apply the law, and so forth, with nothing to prove and a humble attitude. Most people love them, as most people never run into a bad cop in their life. They are unarmed, and the association isn't "authority", but "safety".

We did have a bad seed in my police district. What appears to pass for an average LEO in some parts of the US, going by the word of law abiding citizens, both native and immigrant. The rest of the police cornered him in the locker room, told him he'd leave the force and turn in his badge, then asked if he'd need them to "explain" it to him. He left and went on to mess up some businesses instead. That cut the statistics for police brutality reports in half, which gives you an idea of the level it's usually at: equivalent to less than one bad seed for a district.

What is described in this thread is what we call cowboys, and they're not wanted in law enforcement here. Better to be a hand short.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/1/2013 7:56:21 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its illegal to sell alcohol to a minor.


Here, too. Unarmed civilian inspectors regularly stake out stores suspected of failing to check IDs properly.

quote:

Its not cultural differences, its the differences between legal systems.


It is a cultural difference, and a major one.

As eulero83 said, the reasonable thing if they drove off would be to make a note of their licence plate, send them the fine and put a black mark on their licence. I mean, they weren't suspected of any violent crime, nor waving weapons about. If their driving is erratic, get a patrol car to stop them or lay down a bed of nails or whatever. It doesn't merit escalating the situation to a physical altercation, let alone smashing windows or whatever. Also, not hard to track someone down, so a campus town doesn't seem like a problem.

Note that, around these parts, if you're stopped by police, one of them will approach you (unarmed, of course), and there will be no fuss about things like hands on the wheel or whatever (indeed, they'll appreciate if you dig out your licence and registration while they're approaching, so as to save them some time waiting for you to do so later). Unless you get violent, you'll have a pleasant, polite conversation and be on your way. If you do go medieval on the cop that approached you, the other one will radio for backup. They will not worry about it until and unless it happens, however.

What you're describing is either an authoritarian culture, or a culture of fear, or both.

We don't have that here, and that's not a matter of laws.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/1/2013 7:58:53 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Attempting to avoid arrest is a bigger crime. These officers are on campuses... these are sorority girls... Its a college town... these kids go back to college.. not where the cars are registered.


So let it slide. It's a pack of beer and a misunderstanding, not the hunt for Osama bin Laden, for crying out loud.

Who wants to risk getting people injured over a sixpack?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/1/2013 8:00:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		It`s Obama`s fault.....don`t you people get it!

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 1:17:44 AM   
Edwynn


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This just shows how gone-to-crap things have become in the US.

The South was, at one time, the most tolerant region in the country as regards marijuana (aside from possibly California, after Reagan was gone).

My sister got pulled over once (I forget what for, she never drove fast and she wasn't high at the time, but she doesn't drive all that well either way), and a rural NC cop found 24 young plants in her car. He allowed her to drive to the next parking lot, so she wouldn't have to pay for her car being towed off the HW, and she wound up getting a $50 fine out of it, from an easygoing pre-Reagan-'Death Star!' prosecutor, and nothing on her record to show for it.

In today's world, an entire SWAT team would have slammed her face to the pavement, impounded her car, and sold it at auction.

But this was obviously back in the Carter days. Today, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, whoever, she'd be doing two years, with good behavior.


I'm sorry, but an expensive BATF team bashing the vehicle windows of college kids, even if they actually had beer, what used to take one county cop to bust my sister for plants, is both egregiously inefficient and expensive, and egregiously over the top in any sense of actual concern for or good to society.

Just bizarre.

BTW, the sister has taught in or been librarian for the public school system for over 30 yrs. now. In today's world, she'd never be hired.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/2/2013 1:28:02 AM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 2:13:16 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Attempting to avoid arrest is a bigger crime. These officers are on campuses... these are sorority girls... Its a college town... these kids go back to college.. not where the cars are registered.


yes they go back to college... this means there less difficoulties for a patrol car to find the girls, maybe I'm naive but I don't think these sorority girls will drop college and move to mexico for a charge of alchol possession.
The good faith of the girls it's proven by calling 911 and waiting for a patrol car with an officer in uniform to report what happened, so they avoided arrest but for me, and also for the district attorney as he dropped charges, the fact isn't a crime as the psicological status of intention was missing and their behaviour was due to the behaviuor of the officers that created a scary and confused enviroment bahaving like gangster in a dark and isolated area.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 2:28:25 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

yes they go back to college... this means there less difficoulties for a patrol car to find the girls, maybe I'm naive but I don't think these sorority girls will drop college and move to mexico for a charge of alchol possession.


You do realize they dont register in VA when they go to college, yes? There is no state database for college students, where they live, what address, what campus, what dorm, ect ect ect.

How do you propose they find them to send them this magical ticket you want sent?

quote:

The good faith of the girls it's proven by calling 911


And the cops knew she was doing this... how?

quote:

waiting for a patrol car with an officer in uniform to report what happened


They didnt wait, a cop pulled them over, and they stopped because they saw the flashing lights.

quote:

so they avoided arrest but for me, and also for the district attorney as he dropped charges


He also said there is more to this story than what was said.

quote:

the fact isn't a crime as the psicological status of intention was missing and their behaviour was due to the behaviuor of the officers that created a scary and confused enviroment bahaving like gangster in a dark and isolated area.


According to the "scared woman" who was so "scared" we now take her accounting for this chain of events?

Just curious. Aswad stated police approach cars in your countries with a calm demeanor, unarmed. Know what would happen eher if a cop did? They wouldnt be alive for long.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 2:35:40 AM   
GrizzlyBear


Posts: 278
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From: Missoula Montana
Status: offline 		I also live in a college town. Drinking age is 21. If you are caught with alcohol while under age it is a $50 fine, an infraction not a crime. The cops don't care that much unless you are driving drunk or creating a disturbance - those will be treated more seriously, with at least a night in jail for DUI, plus fines and suspended license.

But they do conduct regular stings on the stores that are selling alcohol. Every store can expect to get tested at least 2 or 3 times a year. They send in someone underage to see if the store will sell to them. If they do, the clerk gets a $500 fine, and is probably fired. The store also gets a $500 fine for first offense. Second offense in a year, $1000 fine. Third offense, $2500 fine and lose their license to sell alcohol for a year. Similar stings are done in bars.

The police department offers a free training course once a month for store clerks, on state laws about alcohol and tobacco, and how to spot a fake ID, counterfeit money, or a stolen credit card. It's funded by the fines collected.

I don't see what the point is in hassling kids in the parking lot. It's the store that will sell w/o ID that is the problem. There is no need for Das Bier Gestapo and that type of nazi police behavior.

Walking out of a grocery store with a bag or a box is not probable cause for a search. If that sort of agent behavior is sanctioned by the state ABC, then the legal problems in that state likely go much deeper. The citizens need to demand accountability. A few $$$ lawsuits for false arrest and harrassment might get the ball rolling.

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 2:37:37 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


Note that, around these parts, if you're stopped by police, one of them will approach you (unarmed, of course), and there will be no fuss about things like hands on the wheel or whatever (indeed, they'll appreciate if you dig out your licence and registration while they're approaching, so as to save them some time waiting for you to do so later). Unless you get violent, you'll have a pleasant, polite conversation and be on your way. If you do go medieval on the cop that approached you, the other one will radio for backup. They will not worry about it until and unless it happens, however.

What you're describing is either an authoritarian culture, or a culture of fear, or both.

We don't have that here, and that's not a matter of laws.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




that's also what happens here, police officers stop a fixed number of random cars in every shift so it happened to me a lot of times to be stopped, one unarmed officer (usually the highest in rank) approaches the car the other one has a weapon and stay close to their car, they just ask for licence and registration so the one close to the car checks on a computer if the car is stolen, if the person has pending criminal charges and staff like this, if everything if fine you go in 10 minutes. I've beed stopped like 20 or 30 times in 11 years, and only once the officer acted like a jerk, being a bit rude not drawing a gun or stuff like that, also when I've been stopped for an infraction they listened my explanation and reported a different infraction with a cheeper fine. And we have big time criminals here too.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 3:03:58 AM   
eulero83


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Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

yes they go back to college... this means there less difficoulties for a patrol car to find the girls, maybe I'm naive but I don't think these sorority girls will drop college and move to mexico for a charge of alchol possession.


You do realize they dont register in VA when they go to college, yes? There is no state database for college students, where they live, what address, what campus, what dorm, ect ect ect.

How do you propose they find them to send them this magical ticket you want sent?

quote:

The good faith of the girls it's proven by calling 911


And the cops knew she was doing this... how?

quote:

waiting for a patrol car with an officer in uniform to report what happened


They didnt wait, a cop pulled them over, and they stopped because they saw the flashing lights.

quote:

so they avoided arrest but for me, and also for the district attorney as he dropped charges


He also said there is more to this story than what was said.

quote:

the fact isn't a crime as the psicological status of intention was missing and their behaviour was due to the behaviuor of the officers that created a scary and confused enviroment bahaving like gangster in a dark and isolated area.


According to the "scared woman" who was so "scared" we now take her accounting for this chain of events?

Just curious. Aswad stated police approach cars in your countries with a calm demeanor, unarmed. Know what would happen eher if a cop did? They wouldnt be alive for long.



I'm sure college administration has a register of students, if a phone call by the police to the administrative office is not enough to have this informations you report it and the next time a patrol car see the plate number will stop it. As aswad said it was just a sixpack. The officer don't need to know she called 911 it's the district attorney that needs to know as she did avoided arrest what I don't understand is the need to act immediatly with force instead of reporting the facts. You never take an accounting for true by definition but if it's supported by a coherent behaviour yes, sure.
I wrote what happens in Italy if you are stopped in the previous post, and I tell this again we have big time criminals here too, I mean surnames like Luciano, Gambino, Capone, Lucchese, Genovese, Bonanno, Colombo, Guardalobene etc. where do you think they come from??

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 3:07:33 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I'm sure college administration has a register of students, if a phone call by the police to the administrative office is not enough to have this informations you report it and the next time a patrol car see the plate number will stop it. As aswad said it was just a sixpack. The officer don't need to know she called 911 it's the district attorney that needs to know as she did avoided arrest what I don't understand is the need to act immediatly with force instead of reporting the facts. You never take an accounting for true by definition but if it's supported by a coherent behaviour yes, sure.


You may be sure.. and you are wrong. Not all students live on campus. Not all students register their vehicles with the schools. What got the girl arrested was not the six pack.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 3:42:35 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I'm sure college administration has a register of students, if a phone call by the police to the administrative office is not enough to have this informations you report it and the next time a patrol car see the plate number will stop it. As aswad said it was just a sixpack. The officer don't need to know she called 911 it's the district attorney that needs to know as she did avoided arrest what I don't understand is the need to act immediatly with force instead of reporting the facts. You never take an accounting for true by definition but if it's supported by a coherent behaviour yes, sure.


You may be sure.. and you are wrong. Not all students live on campus. Not all students register their vehicles with the schools. What got the girl arrested was not the six pack.


I didn't thought my english was so bad... by the way... this is how for me should work and for example it works in norway (in Italy it's regular police that checks alcholic beverage selling so they have uniforms):
ABC two officers approach the girl just outside the store, where there are lights and not in the darker part, with calm voice they identifie themself and show the badges, they ask the girl to check the grocery explaining it's just a routine control, if she doesn't stop they ask to freeze jell she will be charged of avoiding arrest, if she drives away the officers report this to the police department with the plate number, they can sleep tight the night knowing they did their due, in the police department someone will report the plate number to patrol cars if they find her during night an uniformed officer will stop and arrest the girl, if they don't see her car in the morning they will decide if investigate where she could be or just wait for a patrol to cross her path, once she's arrested it's no more their concern and the district attorney or the judge will decide if she can be esonerated or what can be the right sentence.
I don't see nothing wrong in acting this way, and I see this behaviour proportionate to the the situation, jumping on the hood of a car drawing a gun to a teenager girl it's not, it's just acting insane, what I see here is a group of bored b class officers that decide to "scare this girls so they will think twice before buying beer again" and that could not handle the situation letting it degenerate.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 3:42:48 AM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just curious. Aswad stated police approach cars in your countries with a calm demeanor, unarmed. Know what would happen eher if a cop did? They wouldnt be alive for long.


Thus the cultural differences. Additionally more of the same come into play when it comes to the legal drinking age, especially if contrasted with other things that carry age boundaries, like driving, age of consent, and enlisting in the military.

A traffic stop in Germany works more or less the same way as Aswad and Eulero described, with the difference that all German cops are armed.

Something as described in the op would cause a huge ruckus over here, and rightfully so.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 7/2/2013 3:43:54 AM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 4:09:43 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just curious. Aswad stated police approach cars in your countries with a calm demeanor, unarmed. Know what would happen eher if a cop did? They wouldnt be alive for long.


Thus the cultural differences. Additionally more of the same come into play when it comes to the legal drinking age, especially if contrasted with other things that carry age boundaries, like driving, age of consent, and enlisting in the military.

A traffic stop in Germany works more or less the same way as Aswad and Eulero described, with the difference that all German cops are armed.

Something as described in the op would cause a huge ruckus over here, and rightfully so.


Also in Italy they carry weapons one usually one has a submachine gun but never point it to the car he just stand on attention close to patrol car, the one who approaches the car keeps the gun in the holster the whole time. I also have been stopped by austrian police on the border with italy (it was 10pm on a secondary road to cross the border) I saw no weapons they checked if my weels where good for driving on snow and than told me "goodbye and drive safe".
What I meant with cultural differences was about making such a big deal, like having a special police force just for this, or feeling the need to enforce with violence this law, as here it would be just an infraction.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 7/2/2013 4:12:20 AM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 4:21:17 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just curious. Aswad stated police approach cars in your countries with a calm demeanor, unarmed. Know what would happen eher if a cop did? They wouldnt be alive for long.


Thus the cultural differences. Additionally more of the same come into play when it comes to the legal drinking age, especially if contrasted with other things that carry age boundaries, like driving, age of consent, and enlisting in the military.

A traffic stop in Germany works more or less the same way as Aswad and Eulero described, with the difference that all German cops are armed.

Something as described in the op would cause a huge ruckus over here, and rightfully so.


US law, and law enforcement, do not work the same as European countries. Why folks think it should is beyond me. We have officers killed frequently simply because they stopped a motorist.

quote:

ALPHARETTA, Ga. — A suburban Atlanta police officer has been hospitalized after being shot during a traffic stop and the suspect was fatally shot by police after a pursuit through north Fulton County.

Alpharetta Police Department spokesman George Gordon says the officer stopped a truck on Friday for a tag violation and the driver – an unidentified man – opened fire on the officer, wounding him in his abdomen.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/13/alpharetta-georgia-police-officer-shot_n_3075569.html

And people from other countries dont seem to understand the danger police face here.

Im not saying they are all innocent, but, damn, you stop someone for violating the law, something like a tag is a ticket, and the cop walks up and gets shot. So, yeah, when someone is resisting, the guns come out.

An investigation has been started. At the moment, we have a near hysterical group of girls (their story) and the cops.

Hopefully the University uses this as a teaching tool. But not knowing what their badges look like is no excuse to hit them with her vehicle.

As I said earlier, had an officer been seriously hurt, she would still be in jail.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 4:52:07 AM   
calamitysandra


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Status: offline 		I was just pointing out that it is very much an issue of cultural differences.

Might be worth to think about the why of them, though.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 5:00:54 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just curious. Aswad stated police approach cars in your countries with a calm demeanor, unarmed. Know what would happen eher if a cop did? They wouldnt be alive for long.

Thus the cultural differences. Additionally more of the same come into play when it comes to the legal drinking age, especially if contrasted with other things that carry age boundaries, like driving, age of consent, and enlisting in the military.

A traffic stop in Germany works more or less the same way as Aswad and Eulero described, with the difference that all German cops are armed.

Something as described in the op would cause a huge ruckus over here, and rightfully so.

It's pretty much the same here too.
Everything very casual, unhurried, and peaceful unless the person goes berserk at the cops.

I have also travelled all over the EU as a truck driver and encountered armed cops in many of those countries.
I never had a problem with them and they always seemed curteous and polite and most guns were not drawn.
Heck, I even had a race with a german cop down the autobahn from Berlin to Hannover just for a laugh!
...and he bought the beers and coffee!! 


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
US law, and law enforcement, do not work the same as European countries. Why folks think it should is beyond me. We have officers killed frequently simply because they stopped a motorist.

Maybe tazzy, it's because we think you should be more civilised as a country??
I dunno - just a wild stab in the dark.

Just goes to show how fucked up the US is these days.
And I blame the gun culture for all of it - every single incident.

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 5:16:57 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		in Italy during the 70's both comunist and fascist terrorist used to kill police officer to steal them weapons, in southern Italy where mafia is strong somtimes police officer have to run from them waiting for backups as the criminals are more and better armed, so it's not a fairy land even here, by the way just two months ago a lunatic shouted and wounded two carabinieri (it's the main police force in Italy) just outside the president of repubblic's palace during a ceremony for the new governament, they stopped and arrested him without using weapons and no one else in the crowd got injured because of their ability to keep it cool.
However we are talking about three sorority girls not a group of hell's angel bikers, and I have a suspect that with a group of bikers they would have used a more calm and relaxed attitude.
About the story you reported I'd ask myself why there are so many psychotic, gunslinger and serial killers around there and what are the reasons for this situation.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 6:50:38 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Maybe tazzy, it's because we think you should be more civilised as a country??
I dunno - just a wild stab in the dark.

Just goes to show how fucked up the US is these days.
And I blame the gun culture for all of it - every single incident.


We can find blame in many directions... however.. the reality is this is how it is here. Would it be grand if an officer could be assured of his safety as he approaches a vehicle? Of course. Good to know you have that there. here we dont.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/2/2013 7:34:53 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Maybe tazzy, it's because we think you should be more civilised as a country??
I dunno - just a wild stab in the dark.

Just goes to show how fucked up the US is these days.
And I blame the gun culture for all of it - every single incident.


We can find blame in many directions... however.. the reality is this is how it is here. Would it be grand if an officer could be assured of his safety as he approaches a vehicle? Of course. Good to know you have that there. here we dont.


If they kept cool I'm sure no one would have injured themself and everything would be solved in 10 minutes, if someone got injured are the officers to blame, and I'm sure deliberately acted in an overexcited way becuse they saw no real thread in 3 sorority girls with the intention to give them a lesson. What I also don't understand is this attitude if you have a badge you are always right whatever you behave, they didn't think before acting, to me it's obvious that in this situation (three girls in a dark place during night) if I just jump out abruptly and draw a gun without an uniform the girls will just panic, it's common sense.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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