NeedToUseYou
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Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The average German is just as wealthy as the average American and Germans pay more tax which means many of the services such as medical care are cheaper than America's because there are not so many private companies creaming off the profits. The British pay half of what the average American pays for their healthcare and all the British are covered in that price, unlike America where 30-40 million or so people are without medical insurance. Yes, there are problems but the American system isn't problem free either.
I don't think the american system is problem free. Far from it. I see the problem is exactly what you propose to be the solution. The US system already gives free medical care to millions of people that if put in dollar value is already worth thousands a year. So all the poorest in the US do have coverage. The problem with the US system is if you are poor, you qualify for tons of benefits, Free health care, you pay virtually no taxes(tax refund, all your federal taxes at end of year), You get subsidized housing, You get food stamps, You can apply for your electric bill to be paid, You can get WIC if pregnant or have a infant or toddler, in school they give poor kids free lunches, You get grants for going to college. I'm sure their are more those are just things I remember my mother getting growing up. Okay, so that is alot of support to a person paying absolutely nothing into the system. So let's add up roughly the value you get from the government for remaining poor.
Free health care:3000 highly conservative estimate as generally your employer pays the majority of insurance costs for employees. I used to sell insurance and premiums monthly if paid out of pocket and with health condition can exceed a 1000/month.
No Federal Taxes on low wage earners: 1500(roughly compared to lower middle class)
subsidized housing: 2000
Food Stamps(varies depending on family size good average would be 3000/yr)
Electricity paid for or reduced (1000/ yr)
WIC(1000/yr) not all poor qualify.
Federal education grants:(3000/yr)
State education grants:(vary by state good average 1500/yr)
So, if you have a single mother with a infant that wanted to return to school. Just off the benefits I know of (no where near exhaustive list here by the way), would collect easily 15000 in benefits for a single year.(not including the cost of managing doling out those benefits) If one had to work to collect that much cash after taxes You'd need to make over 20000 a year just to cover the freebies. Now go to scenario two. The lower middle class worker
Let's say you make 30000 a year with a child.
You get nothing.....
Actually the working extremely poor or the non-working has more opportunity and flexibility in obtaining education than the worker. LOL. That makes sense.
Now we both agree this is wrong right.
But here's where we depart company
So, you have a situation were everyone including the lower middle class is paying to give opportunity(unfairly), to the poorest, while not being able to afford the same opportunities themselves until you are solidly middle class. So, I say why is this so, shouldn't it be that as you raise yourself out of the range of needing government assistance that one should have more opportunity? It shouldn't be inverse. So, I'd say reduce all those benefits for adults,(I agree we have a obligation to children but not adults), reduce the tax burden, make it worth while to get a job, or look for advancement.
Now, I just lost some people there, well, when I was a kid, that is exactly why people were either not looking for a better job or a job at all. It's simple math, if you make 20000 a year you lose x number of government subsidies for being poor. Those subsidies are worth more than getting a slight pay raise so you don't take incremently higher paying jobs because it causes a reduction in standard of living not an increase. It's 100% true, for the first 17 years of my life virtually everyone I knew was functioning off this mentality, because I lived in a poor area where it was rare any worked outside of part-time or under the table(which is another side effect of government benefits to the poor).
So, solution reduce government benefits to the poor adults or only only those that work(on the books) to collect anything. People even the poor can do basic math, it's not hard to figure out how government assistance discourages people from moving up.
However, the socialists of the world deny the fact that alot of people aren't concerned with fairness or work. Right now I can take you to 10 houses living off the government, all with zero want to work or raise themselves up, they are happy leeching, and having there whole day free. LOL. yeah, we really screw the poor. Some just look at what they can get off the least effort, and that is exactly what is happening in the US. I see no reason to support such people. My first job at 18 was minimum wage. Within six months I found a job that paid 3.00 more an hour to start 4.00 dollars more an hour after a year. I left behind people that had worked at that other place for years for minimum wage. Why? Because they wern't looking. So, a 18 year old can make more than minimum wage, coming from nothing but public aid, in less than six months of entering the workforce. Okay, it's the companies. right. It's a lack of motivation or lack of belief in ones self that's all. I can set up anyone in this country with the opportunity to make 35000 first year not even trying that hard, with no qualifications beyond a high school education, a working vehicle and no felonies. Insurance sells. I did that for 3 years, you know how many people will do that, so few it's pathetic, they'd rather be broke. But I'd do it today, even though I didn't enjoy it before I'd go on welfare. It's priorities. Seriously, anyone, message me if you are poor and willing to work I'll set you up a interview. But don't message if you don't really want to work, because you'll go broke. I haven't worked for them for years now either so, I'm not saying that for personal benefit.
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The whole of a country's GDP could be spent on healkthcare with modern technology. Geramn cities are well run and efficient with a better public transport and infrastructure than the average American city. The same can be said for many of the Scandinavian countries which have a progressive tax system. I wish I could say the same of Britain which tries to follow the American way up to a point and its public infrastructure suffers for it
hmmm, public transport, okay. We do have public transport, but the problem is they almost all lose money, because americans in general like having there own car. It's not because we wouldn't build it, it's just people don't use it enough to make it solvent, unless absolutely necessary, like super large metropolitan areas, like New York.
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Wealth doesn't neccessaily correlate with sweat or even ingenuitity or the importance of someone to society. Society needs toilet cleaners as much as it needs surgeons. In fact people who work in sewer and water plants save more lives than expensive medical professionals etc. Given that fact they should be counted as important and have a fair access to services.
I said lazy people in my post, generally those people don't take such jobs anyway. Moreso, lazy people are those that don't want to work or work the least amount possible. Not the hard working poor. I really wish you'd come visit. I'll take you to neighborhoods, where I know for a fact that no one on whole blocks work. They'll say it's because they can't find a job. LOL. Really, they just don't look. Neighborhoods, I grew up in. And 95% percent of the people there are doing exactly what they've always done, nothing. That's not good people working hard, that is lazy.
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What is the point of a millionaire's money if he can't access clean water? Why should the millionaire be allowed to avoid tax by employing expensive accountants when he is benefiting from the poor? The millionaire should be made to pay a fair share of tax for the privilege of living in a healthy, well maintained society. The rich who refuse to pay a fair share of tax should be seen as social lepers which is what they really are.
No people that do nothing or the minimalist amount possible should be treated as lepers.
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A fair and progressive tax system makes a society more harmonious. No one is talking about Communism but paying for the privilege of living in a healthy well functioning society that allows people to accumulate money. It's a trade off which the rich do their damnest not to contribute while just taking.
The poor often are contributing nothing as well. Not all but a very large percentage. I'd prefer not to support them as well.
So, our view is completely 180 degrees different. If I'm reading you correct you believe you help the poor by giving them benefits. I believe you encourage people to improve themselves by giving them benefits derived from work.
LOL, wow, that was long. But it doesn't matter what is happening and why. This country is turning socialist, so I'm sure we will have all these freebies at the expense of the working class.
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