RE: Contracts (Full Version)

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hrxxx -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 5:19:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx

If you whip a girl!. And she goes to the police,


Then it was either nonconsensual or else she got extremely angry and decided to get me prosecuted. Either way, I made a huge error.
quote:



and the police send her to the doctor / hospital who examines her and takes lovely fine pictures of her body, with the striper that you have made ​​with your whip.

Additional evidence
quote:



The police will get you in for questioning, and smart as you are, you show them your contract that is made between Mr and Miss with agreed abuse.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I do know my best defense is to make a case that it was done in the heat of the moment. (Admittedly, hard to show that the whips just happened to be standing around.) Showing a contract proves premeditation and will make my defense impossible.





Things becomes not legal of be written in a contract.

If you make a contract to kill yourself, do you think that the one who kills you escape punishment because you have made ​​a contract?




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 5:28:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

35 year old man, 19 year old woman.... trouble waiting to happen.

I was 33 when I married my 19yo first wife.  [:D]

To be fair though, we were only married for 12 blissful years before we got divorced.

14+ years is not so uncommon these days and many are quite successful.




hrxxx -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 5:37:56 AM)

Well trust is probably more important than a piece of paper, do not put your trust in a contract, but the person you are with.
And if you feel there is so little trust that you will have a contract to be safe, then it's time to walk away just walk away




Focus50 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 5:42:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ass play... an extremely hard limit!!!

Where is my contract!!!


But but but..., all these donkey-shot avatars????

If your "ass" isn't available externally, we're just not gonna work out at all. [sm=spanking.gif]

Focus.




tazzygirl -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 7:01:08 AM)

Tsk tsk... I am a terrible tease! I thought you knew that!




tazzygirl -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 7:09:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

35 year old man, 19 year old woman.... trouble waiting to happen.

I was 33 when I married my 19yo first wife.  [:D]

To be fair though, we were only married for 12 blissful years before we got divorced.

14+ years is not so uncommon these days and many are quite successful.



When a successful marriage is described as a dozen years, we have a communication problem, Houston.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 9:32:48 AM)

Focus, nobody doubts we have little respect for each other but have some class and leave my Ex out of this, she is NOT Bossyboots...

So, as to my opinion on contracts, one need not use something to have an opinion on their usefulness or lack. Many here dont use them but have strong opinions they have no use in long term M/s relationships. So its kinda funny that you think to say they do have use, I must use them. Its an interesting double standard.

That said, i have used them, both well and in the most idiotic of ways. My opinion has been formed through a lot of experience in a fairly wide het and gay leather groups and seeing how people have used them well.
So, many years ago, first serious D/s relationship. We did probably every bad cliche contract thing out there, even i am ashamed to admit, probably some version of "128 slave rules". They all failed for the reasons many here have stated.

So, fast foreward a decade or so and i have used them with secondary partners as a tool for outlining roles, setting boundaries and the like. They are a great tool for doing so, putting roles and boundaries to paper tends to force people to face hidden expectations and do some self reflecting. So, the usefulness is less the contract and more the process of creating it that holds the key to usefulness. Although having those expectations spelled out physically is a usefull reminder of what is and isnt a part of the relationship.

If i ever find a primary partner again, i will probably do a contract. Since my goal is
marriage, contracts are likely. I have never done a contract with a primary partner since the ones i mentioned above. That said, i do like the power of ritual and am.likely to at some point spell out some things like the importance of revealing hard truths, of the importance of speaking up, of how we deal with financial issues andvother common pitfalls. Yes, all of those topics can be covered simply by talking but knowing you.made a formal, written committment to uphold those values just might improve the outcome.












Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 2:56:06 PM)

I wanted to make a comment about this Master Drew guy. The one which got busted for pimping his slave out for money. I've had a couple of girls in the past tell me that I could sell their body for money. While I really loved knowing that they would offer themselves to this level (yeah, the sense of being able to do that if I wanted). I didn't go for it.

I love DarkStevens post in response to a crazy bitch submissive getting somebody busted. About how it was either a. not truly consensual or that b. she was one angry sub. I was half tempted to make a smart ass post along the lines of "Dude what kind of fucking crazy subs do you hook up with?" I myself have managed to hook up with some crazy bitches, I'm a bit of a magnet for them at times... I still have to encounter anybody this mean and vindictive.





Focus50 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 3:41:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Focus, nobody doubts we have little respect for each other but have some class and leave my Ex out of this, she is NOT Bossyboots...

You think fabricating quotes in my name generates any more respect than your usual cut-n-run when I've asked you hard questions in the past? I've said it many times; I come here to *discuss*. Seems to me there have been times when you've come here for anger management and to often just get offended. Doesn't seem like the way to earn anyone's respect, IMO.

And why's "class" even an issue here? She's a CM member whose posted on these public boards and, well, it's been a while and I can't remember what came after Bossyshoe. And when things were all sweet n rosy, I was one of those regulars who had to sit through that nauseating conundrum of couples who cross-post and ad-lib each other across the boards in the apparent belief that tag-teaming carries a greater weight of opinion and truth. Or is "cute" - speaking of class....




quote:

So, as to my opinion on contracts, one need not use something to have an opinion on their usefulness or lack. Many here dont use them but have strong opinions they have no use in long term M/s relationships. So its kinda funny that you think to say they do have use, I must use them. Its an interesting double standard.

You're gonna hafta explain the "double standard" here. I see more a logical conclusion given you hadn't specified. As I posted earlier, without actually stating your personal opinion, you came in here sneering at those who are anti-contract. We've already got a certain K. here who owns that novel manner of drive-by "discussion".



quote:

That said, i have used them, both well and in the most idiotic of ways. My opinion has been formed through a lot of experience in a fairly wide het and gay leather groups and seeing how people have used them well.
So, many years ago, first serious D/s relationship. We did probably every bad cliche contract thing out there, even i am ashamed to admit, probably some version of "128 slave rules". They all failed for the reasons many here have stated.

So, fast foreward a decade or so and i have used them with secondary partners as a tool for outlining roles, setting boundaries and the like. They are a great tool for doing so, putting roles and boundaries to paper tends to force people to face hidden expectations and do some self reflecting. So, the usefulness is less the contract and more the process of creating it that holds the key to usefulness. Although having those expectations spelled out physically is a usefull reminder of what is and isnt a part of the relationship.

If i ever find a primary partner again, i will probably do a contract. Since my goal is
marriage, contracts are likely. I have never done a contract with a primary partner since the ones i mentioned above. That said, i do like the power of ritual and am.likely to at some point spell out some things like the importance of revealing hard truths, of the importance of speaking up, of how we deal with financial issues andvother common pitfalls. Yes, all of those topics can be covered simply by talking but knowing you.made a formal, written committment to uphold those values just might improve the outcome.

See, now this is an answer or opinion which, while I mostly don't agree, I can respect. I'm a little surprised that you are a strong advocate of them given you appreciate the reasons many have given for not wanting a bar of them.

And I don't think it's necessary for mature people as a whole to personally explore the ridiculousness of something in order to have an informed opinion either way.

Too bad this wasn't your original post in this thread, cos then we wouldn't be talking about "class" and "respect"....

Focus.




Focus50 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 3:47:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx

Well trust is probably more important than a piece of paper, do not put your trust in a contract, but the person you are with.
And if you feel there is so little trust that you will have a contract to be safe, then it's time to walk away just walk away


Crikey, where was this 2 pages ago...? [:-]

Focus.




Focus50 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 3:51:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

35 year old man, 19 year old woman.... trouble waiting to happen.

I was 33 when I married my 19yo first wife.  [:D]

To be fair though, we were only married for 12 blissful years before we got divorced.

14+ years is not so uncommon these days and many are quite successful.



When a successful marriage is described as a dozen years, we have a communication problem, Houston.


Just to nit-pick, the fact they did get divorced suggests that at least the 12th year wasn't so blissful....

Focus.




hrxxx -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 4:17:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx

Well trust is probably more important than a piece of paper, do not put your trust in a contract, but the person you are with.
And if you feel there is so little trust that you will have a contract to be safe, then it's time to walk away just walk away


Crikey, where was this 2 pages ago...? [:-]

Focus.




You mean without all the fine stories about how the contracts work out in real life?
My guess is that you would have had 10 more pages with inconsequential nonsense.




hrxxx -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 6:02:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

35 year old man, 19 year old woman.... trouble waiting to happen.


I just repost this story again without email.

quote:

NEW PORT RICHEY — The e-mail was poorly written, sexually explicit and utterly disgusting.

In it, a 19-year-old woman shared her perverted fantasies with Andrew Michael Kobak, who was arrested last year for sexually enslaving her under "Master Drew's Slavery Contract." That agreement said she had to wake up at 7 a.m., make coffee, wear a collar and leash and submit to humiliation and the cane.

But there are some things not even "Master Drew" can stomach."You really need help," he responded to her explicit e-mail. "You are very sick for thinking I would want to do that."

That e-mail exchange was weeks after Kobak's arrest. He once faced up to 90 years in prison — but walked out of court a free man on Wednesday.

Kobak struck a plea bargain with the Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney's Office in which he received three years' probation.

So what happened to the state's case?

The state's perception of the woman changed. Once, prosecutors called her a victim.

They don't call her that anymore.

• • •

The woman, now 20, alleged in July 2007 that Kobak forced her to be his "sex slave" and perform sexual acts for other, paying men. Kobak was charged with 17 prostitution-related offenses.

At one time she was also a defendant, cited for misdemeanor prostitution. The State Attorney's Office later decided she was a victim and dropped the charge. But now the state won't even call her a reliable witness.

Her credibility began to erode, Chief Assistant State Attorney Bruce Bartlett said, after she made an allegation of sexual abuse against a relative that she later admitted was false.

Nor could investigators find the men who she said paid Kobak to have sex with her.

At first she told investigators Kobak "manipulated" her into being his sex slave, Bartlett said. But now the state believes their relations were consensual.

Kobak's attorneys also found three witnesses who said the woman was not at the defendant's house on dates and times she accused him of abusing her.

And there's those sexually explicit e-mails she sent Kobak weeks after the bust.

"She said certain things to the police when she was arrested," said Kobak's attorney, Denis deVlaming, "and a lot of that information turned out to be incorrect, inaccurate or, quite frankly, fabricated."

But the woman told authorities she has been sexually abused and suffers from severe psychological problems. The St. Petersburg Times is withholding her identity because of these issues.

The state would only prosecute charges witnessed by others.

"Unfortunately, as is often the case in these bizarre sexual scenarios, you end up having (a witness) who has a great deal of baggage themselves," Bartlett said, "and then the next evaluation you have to make is, how is this going to appear to a jury?"

• • •

Kobak, 35, pleaded guilty Wednesday to deriving proceeds from prostitution, maintaining a place of prostitution and possession of marijuana.

The judge ordered that he have no access to a computer or the Internet, save for work. He cannot possess or view pornography. He cannot contact the woman. He must submit a DNA sample. He must continue counseling.

Now a traveling salesman living in Pennsylvania, Kobak cannot leave that state save for work.

Adjudication of guilt was withheld, sparing him from becoming a convicted felon.

Kobak left court without comment — but not before the judge put "Master Drew" in his place.

"I'd just like to say there's nothing masterful about being a pimp," Circuit Judge Jack Day told Kobak. "We have robbers, burglars, muggers, all kinds of gangsters come through here.

"But there's nothing more contemptible than a pimp."




Focus50 -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 8:13:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx

Well trust is probably more important than a piece of paper, do not put your trust in a contract, but the person you are with.
And if you feel there is so little trust that you will have a contract to be safe, then it's time to walk away just walk away


Crikey, where was this 2 pages ago...? [:-]

Focus.




You mean without all the fine stories about how the contracts work out in real life?
My guess is that you would have had 10 more pages with inconsequential nonsense.


You understand we're just discussing personal thoughts as opposed to making law or policy? And that too many "facts" don't always progress such discussions of personal opinion/experience.

Just because something is "inconsequential nonsense" to you is not to diminish the relevance to others here. I mean, I skipped over your last few c/p's because, to me, they were more inc....

Food for thought?

Focus.




hrxxx -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 9:52:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: hrxxx

Well trust is probably more important than a piece of paper, do not put your trust in a contract, but the person you are with.
And if you feel there is so little trust that you will have a contract to be safe, then it's time to walk away just walk away


Crikey, where was this 2 pages ago...? [:-]

Focus.




You mean without all the fine stories about how the contracts work out in real life?
My guess is that you would have had 10 more pages with inconsequential nonsense.


You understand we're just discussing personal thoughts as opposed to making law or policy? And that too many "facts" don't always progress such discussions of personal opinion/experience.

Just because something is "inconsequential nonsense" to you is not to diminish the relevance to others here. I mean, I skipped over your last few c/p's because, to me, they were more inc....

Food for thought?

Focus.


quote:

inconsequential nonsense


I agree with you! And I see just an issue of it when you're talking about law and BDSM and contract together.
It is not possible to make abuse legally by writing it in a contract, and it is completely idiotic to believe it's possible.
And a big problem may be that in 1-2 years, there is someone who reads this thread and believe all the inconsequential nonsense, and believe in words like "who knows" "it might" "sure why not" and he decides out to make a contract with a girl he does not really trust, and end up in jail because of other idiots thoughts who believe that abuse can be done legally in a contract.

A submissive can go to the police when she wants, and your ass belongs to Bubba contract or no contract!

ABUSE IS ILLEGAL.

You are a bitch to your sub.

It's not rocket science, but BDSM basic for beginners

quote:

I skipped over your last few c/p's because, to me, they were more inc....


No hard feelings from me, i skipped over 5 pages of inconsequential nonsense




tazzygirl -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 9:54:11 PM)

quote:

You are a bitch to your sub.


Only when the sub is not a sub but a bitch... or the man is an abusive asshole.




hrxxx -> RE: Contracts (7/13/2013 11:59:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

You are a bitch to your sub.


Only when the sub is not a sub but a bitch... or the man is an abusive asshole.


What you see as abuse, see others as kink, and some see your kink as abusive. It's very different what people see as kink and abuse.

This is one of my limits

I will not break any of your bones.
Now you may ask yourself why I have to say it's one of my limits.

It's not all in BDSM who live their lives according to Training of O
And look mainstrem BDSM porn all day long




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