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History, repeating itself - 11/14/2004 11:45:09 AM   
yngskinhunter


Posts: 9
Joined: 11/11/2004
Status: offline 		Okay, the sign says "Danger: Beware..." the rest of it is kind of fuzzy, where did I put my glasses?

I am far from being a degreed individual. <--- disclaimer

But, didn't we fight the British for independence. To have a country to call our own?

So, when did the american armed forces become an occupational force. When did we start to push our views onto other contries, by way of the gun? or the barrel of a tanks cannon?

We have in the past used, force. As a means to, an end. But not to this degree... well except for maybe Viet Nam. But, when Libya challenged the US. We used a strategic bombing run, then utilized sanctions against that country. Same as we did with Cuba, the navel blockade. Followed up with sanctions and embargoes. Diplomacy works, if given a chance. And while I do not disagree with the use of force. I do see a problem with going into another country, and restructuring it. In our image.

This smells alot like colonialism, to me. After this is all over, will Iraq be it's own country or will it some day petition congress for statehood?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/14/2004 11:04:18 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Did you forget about Japan, Germany or South Korea? We still have troops in each of those countries. And in my opinion, they are doing much better after becoming more "in our image". And they are three countries that we don't have to worry about as enemies anymore. That is the plan with Iraq.

(in reply to yngskinhunter)
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RE: History, repeating itself - 11/14/2004 11:20:37 PM   
Yankeestick


Posts: 91
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Did you forget about Japan, Germany or South Korea? We still have troops in each of those countries. And in my opinion, they are doing much better after becoming more "in our image". And they are three countries that we don't have to worry about as enemies anymore. That is the plan with Iraq.


I remember well my Dad telling me how much we worried about our enemy South Korea around the time I was born. Thank god they're our friend now!

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/14/2004 11:21:53 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		If that were really the plan in Iraq, we wouldn't have handed out the rights to do lucrative business there to corporations that just happen to have intimate personal ties to the President and Vice President. (Read: Halliburton.) Sorry, but good old-fashioned corruption makes all that idealistic verbiage pretty empty to me.

Besides, since when is rendering another nation in our image, even if it's better for them, the same thing as spreading democracy? I thought democracy was letting them choose their own image.

Lam

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 12:00:08 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Why is it that when this country does things in our own self interest, that is considered wrong? We are trying to insure that Iraq will not be a threat to us in the future. And just as we did in Japan, Germany and South Korea, we will set up a Democratic government that will be friendly to us. What the hell is wrong with that? Are you going to tell me that any of those countries were better off before? Please! I would hope that Iraqis love freedom too (although not all of them it seems).
And can we get off this Haliburton thing? It is getting old. Show me proof of what you say or don't say anything.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 7:13:58 AM   
Yankeestick


Posts: 91
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Show me proof of what you say or don't say anything.


Good advice.

South Korea - Never an Enemy of the US


< Message edited by Yankeestick -- 11/15/2004 7:15:06 AM >

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 7:53:18 AM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
Status: offline 		I do see one obvious difference, however. In Korea, Japan and Germany, we were helping nationalist forces defend or recover their countries, which were under attack by an aggressive and belligerent power which had dreams of empire. Now, instead, we are the ones attacking, and we are the ones having problems with angry nationalists. So the current situation seems closer to Vietnam than to WWII.
quote:


Show me proof of what you say or don't say anything.

Huh? This must be about the 500th post expressing a political opinion here on CM, and none of the others ever offered proof of anything. When did the rules change?

_____________________________

"Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent rather than passive agreement; for if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter."
-- Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 8:42:39 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Why is it that when this country does things in our own self interest, that is considered wrong? We are trying to insure that Iraq will not be a threat to us in the future.


Why don't we just finish up and invade the rest of the world? Then nothing will be a threat to us in the future.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 11:34:07 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Why don't we just finish up and invade the rest of the world?


Let's review shall we???

How much territory did the US keep after WWII? Japan unconditional surrender. Germany - Unconditional surrender. Shouldn't they be a US state by now based on the logic of some of the posters to this thread? Even in Germany, the only occupied area was half of Berlin - wonder who the East Berliners would have preferred to occupy them post WWII? Other then breeding a hell of a woman's swim team, do you thing East Germany achieved anything compared to West Germany prior to the re-unification?

Occupiers of the Middle East after WWII - The US and it's allies. Let's see, England decided to keep some turf, Turkey occupied Greece until the the early 70's, and the US kept how much of that oil floating area of the world?

And let's not forget the French. Whose 4 levels of Terror Alert are "Scared", "Running", "Hiding", "Capitulating". Sadly under-reported the French still occupy the Ivory Coast with over 5,000 troops. Anyone read this buried article?
quote:

Violence erupted Saturday when Ivory Coast warplanes killed nine French peacekeepers and an American aid worker in an air strike on the rebel-held north in three days of government air attacks that violated a more than year-old cease-fire in the country's civil war.

France wiped out the nation's new air force on the tarmac within hours. The retaliation sparked violence by loyalist youths, who took to the streets waving machetes, iron bars and clubs.


The French had state of the art Mirage Jets, the Ivory Coast - 1970 era jets, 3 helicopters and a bi-plane. Is France the example the US should follow? France, who after giving Arafat a State funeral, is contemplating naming streets after a terrorist who bragged about organizing the killing of Olympic athletes at the 1972 Olympics. Why is France doing this? Perhaps to protect thier corporate interests in the Arab world? France, the #1 seller and provider of military equipment to Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Libyia

Where in the world is all this territory the US captured and kept from all our military "interventions"? Even the reference to the "Corporate" occupation falls apart with closer observation. Look at the location of the corporate headquarters. Look at the owners (stockholders). And finally, look at your own 401k or Mutual Fund. I'll assume all those anti-corporate types don't invest and refuse to invest in ANY multi-national corporation.

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 5:58:23 PM   
yngskinhunter


Posts: 9
Joined: 11/11/2004
Status: offline 		Okay, Cuba - parked a potentially dangerous missile base rather close to our country. Granted, we tried the Bay of Pigs fiasco... which didn't really work out. So with our naval forces, we decide to blockade the island nation. This was done for US self interest. But it was followed up with trade embargoes, which are still in effect.

As, for Japan... Yes, an ally. But, as I recall reading some time back. We (how nice) gave them, at the time our best fighter plane (an F-15). They were really nice, and upgraded it making it even better. Then held on to it, claiming it was the property of their country.

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 7:08:55 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It wasn't Cuba that had the missiles, it was The Soviet Union which put the missiles there. We almost went to war over them. The Soviets backed down. How much do you want to bet that those missiles would still be there if WE had backed down?
I don't know about the F-15, but I do know that Japan is now an ally of ours, and we don't have to worry about being attacked by them.
It's funny that no one complained about Halliburton when the Clinton Administration took contributions and did business with them. Why is that? I am no fan of big business, but the main reason Halliburton gets so much business is because no other company does as good a job. The Bush Administration is not the first to know this.

(in reply to yngskinhunter)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/15/2004 8:19:39 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

It wasn't Cuba that had the missiles, it was The Soviet Union which put the missiles there. We almost went to war over them.


I remember that well. I was in high school at the time and we lived pretty close to the Boeing plant which was considered a potential target. So my parents took me and my brother out of school for several days and we went to our cabin in the mountains.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/16/2004 8:29:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Did we invade Cuba and nobody told me?

We have a lease on Guantanamo Bay. The United States pays an annual fee to Cuba for that property. It was in place long before the communist take over of the country.

An example of the US "imperialistic" mentality; the Panama Canal. We built it, we managed it, we paid for it, and we gave it back. We now pay for the rights for our ships to pass through it. Compare that to the Suez Canal - test question; who contructed and who owns and manages this?




(in reply to yngskinhunter)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/16/2004 9:58:38 PM   
TaurusMCMLVIII


Posts: 88
Joined: 1/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

So, when did the american armed forces become an occupational force. When did we start to push our views onto other contries, by way of the gun? or the barrel of a tanks cannon?

I have given this quite a bit of thought and listened to various opinions from credible sources. I am always in favor of a peaceful resolution to any issue. But one opinion is that certain obligations come along with being the most powerful nation in the world. One of those obligations is to be the "world policeman." Whether we like this or not, there is some truth to this statement. Consider this analogy. If there are 2 children fighting in the play ground then should a responsible adult just stand by and expect the children to work it out even if one or both are getting hurt? Or does that adult have a moral obligation to step in and resolve the conflict? I know this is a simplified view but it really isn't much different from the position that the U.S. is in.


(in reply to yngskinhunter)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/16/2004 11:27:39 PM   
compes


Posts: 92
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I know why we occupied Japan, Germany, South Korea. I've been stationed in two of those countries. Japan and Germany threatened America directly - they had the power to do us real harm. Korea asked for our help.

But I don't understand why we invaded Iraq.

And if you tell me it had anything to do with 9/11, well, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Compes

< Message edited by compes -- 11/17/2004 12:24:25 AM >

(in reply to TaurusMCMLVIII)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/17/2004 10:12:34 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

But I don't understand why we invaded Iraq. And if you tell me it had anything to do with 9/11, well, I've got a bridge to sell you.


"For believers no proof is necessary. For the unbelievers - no proof is enough."

I was 3 hours from being on the 97th floor of WTC II, my business partner, many friends and acquaintances died there that day. My city, without warning was attacked.

I also would not have invaded Iraq - I would have nuked it. Still would. The first reaction would have been a remote part of the country, with notice that unless Bin Laden was surrendered in one week it will be Baghdad. I would have continued until there were either no cities left in the Arab/Muslim world or Bin Laden was turned over. But that's just me.

Innocent people killed? Sure, but they'd have the option of leaving. They would be specifically warned, unlike us on 9/11.

Ever wonder why Israel can exist in the midst of people and governments that hate them? Governments like Libya, Iran, Jordan and previously Iraq whose stated position is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? It's because it is Israel's standing position that ANY action against them or their citizens will be responded to in force many times the force used against them. They've acted on that position and their enemies know they will do so again. If the US adopted that position would we have been attacked on 9/11?

The great hero of the French, Arafat, was offered everything he asked in exchange for peace under President Clinton. It was and should have been a great accomplishment of the Clinton administration. But Arafat refused it. Why? Because there is no money for him in peace. And peace is not the goal of the Muslims or the terrorists representing them. Arafat stole Billions of dollars from his people as they live in poverty. His widow now lives in France with an annual stipend of $23 Million a year. In a peaceful middle east the terrorist money that supports that lifestyle would likely dry up.

Think the "Palestinians" and Muslims want peace? If so - perhaps it's you who would buy that bridge.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/17/2004 10:20:45 AM >

(in reply to compes)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/17/2004 10:45:25 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I also would not have invaded Iraq - I would have nuked it. Still would. The first reaction would have been a remote part of the country, with notice that unless Bin Laden was surrendered in one week it will be Baghdad. I would have continued until there were either no cities left in the Arab/Muslim world or Bin Laden was turned over. But that's just me.

*boggle*

I understand your pain over the 9/11 attack but this is nuts. Thank $diety that your hand isn't on the button.

~stef

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/17/2004 10:50:46 AM   
Yankeestick


Posts: 91
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Merc:

Ever wonder why Israel can exist in the midst of people and governments that hate them? Governments like Libya, Iran, Jordan and previously Iraq whose stated position is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? It's because it is Israel's standing position that ANY action against them or their citizens will be responded to in force many times the force used against them. They've acted on that position and their enemies know they will do so again.


Merc, you're confused about Jordan under both King Abdullah and his late father King Hussein, just like E-String is confused about South Korea.

Rational discourse isn't possible without a common knowledge base of basic history.

That's a non-partisan comment, btw.

quote:

Merc - If the US adopted that position would we have been attacked on 9/11?


The history of the whole world proves that the threat of overwhelming retaliation doesn't stop people committed to their nationalistic or religious causes - whatever you might think of them. Such people consider it an honor to die for what they believe in.

That's as true of the American's fighting the overwhelming forces of England in the Revolutionary War, The North Vietnamese fighting first the overwhelming force of the French, then the overwhelming force of the Americans, the Jews fighting to the death against the Romans, etc.

Those nations who are aligned against Israel have been able to play effective dodgeball against retaliation by using surrogates who are happy to die for a martyr's cause. Making the dust bounce with nukes won't stop that - and the fallout will kill the Israelis as surely as it kills their enemies.

Bad plan.

Having said that, Merc, as a local boy, who grew up a mere mile from ground zero, who worked at the trade center, whose mother saw the second plane go in from the kitchen window in my childhood apartment, and who was deeply affected by the event, I am very sorry for the loss of your partner, and your friends.

quote:

Think the "Palestinians" and Muslims want peace?


I know that many of them do. They were very close to peace during the Clinton administration. If the world continues, people of goodwill, including Bush and Blair, have hopes that peace can be possible in that region, with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side.

Best wishes,

Yankeestick

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/17/2004 11:15:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Merc, you're confused about Jordan under both King Abdullah and his late father King Hussein,


I was going to include Saudi Arabia and Egypt in the original post, because their stated political position also allows for the existence of Israel. Their concession to that position along with Jordan's is the result of the US paying them off. Yours and my tax dollars paid for that position. But that doesn't change their phylosphy or that of their people.

Which country supplied the most terrorists on 9/11? Saudi Arabia.

As for Jordan, I can give you 100's of examples of their populations real position. These are most current:

"Iraqi officials declared the operation to free Fallujah of insurgents was "accomplished" but acknowledged the two most wanted figures in the city, Jordanian terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Sheik Abdullah al-Janabi, had escaped."

Want a link between Jordan and Iraq:

NEW YORK - (AP) -- Saddam Hussein diverted money from the U.N. oil-for-food program to pay millions of dollars to families of Palestinian suicide bombers who carried out attacks on Israel, say congressional investigators who uncovered evidence of the money trail.

The former Iraqi president tapped secret bank accounts in Jordan -- where he collected bribes from foreign companies and individuals doing illicit business under the humanitarian program -- to reward the families up to $25,000 each, investigators told The Associated Press. Iraq had thousands of secret bank accounts, including more than 1,500 in Jordan. Money from kickbacks on oil-for-food deals, illegal oil payments from the Jordanian government and other illicit funds were paid into accounts held by a Jordanian branch of the Iraqi government-owned Rafidain Bank, investigators said.

My position comes from facts . That information doesn't confuse me, it educates and enlightens me.

(in reply to Yankeestick)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: History, repeating itself - 11/17/2004 1:25:52 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TaurusMCMLVIII

quote:

So, when did the american armed forces become an occupational force. When did we start to push our views onto other contries, by way of the gun? or the barrel of a tanks cannon?

I have given this quite a bit of thought and listened to various opinions from credible sources. I am always in favor of a peaceful resolution to any issue. But one opinion is that certain obligations come along with being the most powerful nation in the world. One of those obligations is to be the "world policeman." Whether we like this or not, there is some truth to this statement. Consider this analogy. If there are 2 children fighting in the play ground then should a responsible adult just stand by and expect the children to work it out even if one or both are getting hurt? Or does that adult have a moral obligation to step in and resolve the conflict? I know this is a simplified view but it really isn't much different from the position that the U.S. is in.




So America is all grown up... an Adult in a kindergarden and certain other countries are not?

Hmmmmm... I see.



_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TaurusMCMLVIII)
Profile   Post #: 20
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