RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Who are more free... Americans or Europeans

Americans have more freedoms

37% (22)

Europeans have more freedoms

35% (21)

Both are about as free as eachother

27% (16)

Total Votes : 59

(last vote on : 8/22/2013 9:34:29 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Real0ne -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 9:33:55 PM)
and health has nothing to do with freedom. furthermore look at burzynski with his antineoplaston cancer research that the government restricts him to only texas? Best brain cancer results of anyone going and the FDA not only holds him back and down they sued him 5 times and threw him in jail and while in jail stole is damn patents so they could get a piece of that action. Yeh we are the FREE red white and blue alrighty! LOL

frider -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 9:38:46 PM)
Having lived in both it's easy...........neither!!!....probably Australia, as things stand at the moment!!!!!

pahunkboy -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 9:38:56 PM)
quote: and health has nothing to do with freedom. Notice the 2005 bankruptcy reform did nothing to address medical debts- they even added an extra year- so not it is 8 before you can file again. So the reform bankrupcy just in time for the housing bubble. See the game? Looks like Europe has won this poll. Maybe we can send some people back.

ernest10 -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 9:55:14 PM)
People don't go broke because of government involvement in healthcare. The basic problem we have is a for profit health care system, not the government attempting to fix a "small problem". How many stories do we read or see on TV about families going bust because a family member has a catastrophic illness. The government didn't set the prices, the hospitals do. Now it's starts to get complex. The hospitals charge these prices because as for profit entities they must, well, show a profit to the board of directors and any investors. They also have the cost of fending off unwarranted lawsuits. So frivolous litigation further pushes the prices up because they still have to make a profit. And then there are the legitimate cases of negligence which get settled out of court, or in court, and prices go highers still. And lets not forget the medications. And it's been shown time and again that medications in the US cost more than the same medication in Europe or even Canada. That's because their governments are involved in health care and negotiate fair prices for those medicines. And yes, if everyone paid a flat rate tax, including those corporations that pay little in taxes as compared to their profits, we would not have the budget issues we have today. We all work the tax systems as best we can. To say otherwise would be disingenuous. Doesn't seem like much when it's just you and me but when it's millions of us times the large corporations, it's a lot of cash not going to programs that benefit us all. Okay, now I have a headache. Where's my $75.00 aspirin?

pahunkboy -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 9:59:21 PM)
The goal of the health care industry is to sell the most pills at the highest prices possible.

Real0ne -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 10:15:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ernest10 People don't go broke because of government involvement in healthcare. The basic problem we have is a for profit health care system, not the government attempting to fix a "small problem". How many stories do we read or see on TV about families going bust because a family member has a catastrophic illness. The government didn't set the prices, the hospitals do. Now it's starts to get complex. The hospitals charge these prices because as for profit entities they must, well, show a profit to the board of directors and any investors. They also have the cost of fending off unwarranted lawsuits. So frivolous litigation further pushes the prices up because they still have to make a profit. And then there are the legitimate cases of negligence which get settled out of court, or in court, and prices go highers still. And lets not forget the medications. And it's been shown time and again that medications in the US cost more than the same medication in Europe or even Canada. That's because their governments are involved in health care and negotiate fair prices for those medicines. And yes, if everyone paid a flat rate tax, including those corporations that pay little in taxes as compared to their profits, we would not have the budget issues we have today. We all work the tax systems as best we can. To say otherwise would be disingenuous. Doesn't seem like much when it's just you and me but when it's millions of us times the large corporations, it's a lot of cash not going to programs that benefit us all. Okay, now I have a headache. Where's my $75.00 aspirin? you are comparing one interloper system to another while I am comparing no interloper system to an interloper system. If you want to accept that its a necessity then there is little to discuss, likewise the more money you make the more money you are able to make. Both very simple principles. Outlaw a drug then charge ridiculous prices plus a script requirement and doctors appointment for something that I can simply get over the counter in that backwards barbaric ME countries that well thought out americans want to impose their "democracy" on and moreover you can get any drug you want over the counter by simply walking in at 1/10th the cost for the pills you pay here. I have not even gotten into the licensing and all the other shit the democracy IMPOSES upon the med industry. Did I say industry? Mafia comes to mind

ernest10 -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 10:17:54 PM)
Apparently you missed my point. If you read to entire post, you'll see that I'm defending those who can't afford healthcare. And health has a lot to do with freedom in this country. People who are in debt because of health issues are held captive by the health system. Grandma needs surgery and you can't afford it, take out loans to pay for it. Can't pay, we garnish your wages. Grandma needs more care, what else have you got? Can't pay all your loans off, we take your stuff. Doesn't seem very much like freedom to me.

Real0ne -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 10:23:56 PM)
OOPs guess I walked away with the wrong impression of what you meant. Otherwise its called bond slavery. Its been done since the beginning of time. The long story short is that they bankrupt a country through wars or by financial debauchery then give the same a loan that you the people have to pay off. Like Iraq and afghanastan, we never voted on that shit, yet we are stuck with the tab while the government expanded its businesses with the creation of a few new agencies etc and of course their pals that go along for the free ride and we get stuck with the bill for the profits THEY made. Top to bottom RICO.

ernest10 -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 10:35:00 PM)
You are correct, them what gots, gets. I'm not saying people shouldn't have the opportunity to make as much as they want. I'm saying pay whats owed, like those of us who can't afford armies of accountants to find ways around the system. I pay 15% of mine, you pay 15% of yours. (or 10%, or 20%, the idea remains the same) As to health care being an industry, we seem to be in agreement. It is, and it shouldn't be. Making people well should not depend on how much they can spend. But then it's always been that way hasn't it? Them what gots, gets. That includes healthcare. If getting proper medical attention is dependent on personal wealth, that flies in the face of "...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...", doesn't it? quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: ernest10 People don't go broke because of government involvement in healthcare. The basic problem we have is a for profit health care system, not the government attempting to fix a "small problem". How many stories do we read or see on TV about families going bust because a family member has a catastrophic illness. The government didn't set the prices, the hospitals do. Now it's starts to get complex. The hospitals charge these prices because as for profit entities they must, well, show a profit to the board of directors and any investors. They also have the cost of fending off unwarranted lawsuits. So frivolous litigation further pushes the prices up because they still have to make a profit. And then there are the legitimate cases of negligence which get settled out of court, or in court, and prices go highers still. And lets not forget the medications. And it's been shown time and again that medications in the US cost more than the same medication in Europe or even Canada. That's because their governments are involved in health care and negotiate fair prices for those medicines. And yes, if everyone paid a flat rate tax, including those corporations that pay little in taxes as compared to their profits, we would not have the budget issues we have today. We all work the tax systems as best we can. To say otherwise would be disingenuous. Doesn't seem like much when it's just you and me but when it's millions of us times the large corporations, it's a lot of cash not going to programs that benefit us all. Okay, now I have a headache. Where's my $75.00 aspirin? you are comparing one interloper system to another while I am comparing no interloper system to an interloper system. If you want to accept that its a necessity then there is little to discuss, likewise the more money you make the more money you are able to make. Both very simple principles. Outlaw a drug then charge ridiculous prices plus a script requirement and doctors appointment for something that I can simply get over the counter in that backwards barbaric ME countries that well thought out americans want to impose their "democracy" on and moreover you can get any drug you want over the counter by simply walking in at 1/10th the cost for the pills you pay here. I have not even gotten into the licensing and all the other shit the democracy IMPOSES upon the med industry. Did I say industry? Mafia comes to mind

Real0ne -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/17/2013 10:39:35 PM)
a good part of that reason is because of "everything" the government imposes on everyone and everything involved. From taxes, to licensing, that the doctors have to incur the costs of. It all adds up and they cannot fly under the radar like someone out there mowing lawns for a living.

Edwynn -> RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans (8/19/2013 11:49:23 PM)
You've got it backwards. The AMA and the health insurance industry tell the government what they will or will not accept, just like the financial industry, the oil industry, the agro-chem industry, etc. (which is why Obamacare sucks, why farm subsidies suck, why oil industry subsidies suck, why Koch Bros. subsidies suck, etc.) You keep bitching about the dog, apparently oblivious to the tail wagging such dog. The US health care system doesn't cost 50% and higher more than any other country's health care system due to US government mandate, but because of the private health care system profiteering mandate as exists in this country. As in any other business sector, the US government is just doing what they are paid to do by the private sector. In fact, if you want to claim that the US government has somehow morphed into just another "business sector," you'd have my vote. And all this time you led people to believe that you followed your own advice regarding "follow the money," yet missing out on the fact that half of congress leave office to work for lobbying firms, and that ALEC writes the laws, and that there were ~3,000 lobbying firms in the '80s whereas there are ~ 35,000 lobbying firms now. You just don't get it.

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