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[Poll]

Who are more free... Americans or Europeans


Americans have more freedoms
  37% (22)
Europeans have more freedoms
  35% (21)
Both are about as free as eachother
  27% (16)


Total Votes : 59
(last vote on : 8/22/2013 9:34:29 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 6:58:18 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Why can't we do anything about this? I used to think that if the people learned about what was going on and about potential threats to their freedom, they'd wake up, organize, and do something about it. I thought maybe the OWS had some potential, but that seemed to fizzle out rather quickly. I don't think it's a matter of "can't," but rather, a matter of "won't." People won't do anything about the current situation, even though they have the freedom to speak and the power to vote.


The "power to speak"??? the "power to vote"???



You may laugh, but I see the freedom to speak exercised every day. Even here in this forum, we can see people exercising their rights, and even those with strong anti-government views don't seem to be disappearing without trace.

Same for the power to vote. People go out to the polls at every primary, caucus, and election. They can vote for anyone they want, but for some reason, they keep electing the same group of assholes every time. So, the way I see it, it's not that the people can't do anything, but that they won't.

Even if we didn't have the right to vote or speak freely, the people still have the power to change things, so even that's not a good excuse. Absolutist monarchies have been overthrown by popular revolts, so it's always possible to change things, no matter how "free" or "not free" people happen to be at any given time.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 8:40:40 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Why can't we do anything about this? I used to think that if the people learned about what was going on and about potential threats to their freedom, they'd wake up, organize, and do something about it. I thought maybe the OWS had some potential, but that seemed to fizzle out rather quickly. I don't think it's a matter of "can't," but rather, a matter of "won't." People won't do anything about the current situation, even though they have the freedom to speak and the power to vote.


The "power to speak"??? the "power to vote"???



You may laugh, but I see the freedom to speak exercised every day. Even here in this forum, we can see people exercising their rights, and even those with strong anti-government views don't seem to be disappearing without trace.

Same for the power to vote. People go out to the polls at every primary, caucus, and election. They can vote for anyone they want, but for some reason, they keep electing the same group of assholes every time. So, the way I see it, it's not that the people can't do anything, but that they won't.

Even if we didn't have the right to vote or speak freely, the people still have the power to change things, so even that's not a good excuse. Absolutist monarchies have been overthrown by popular revolts, so it's always possible to change things, no matter how "free" or "not free" people happen to be at any given time.

that wasnt really my point.. the power to speak means very little if the govt doesnt listen or give a shite.. and the power to vote means very little if there is no one worthy of voting for.. sure, you can go thru the motions but what has that got ya so far? both parties in the govt is run entirely by the 1% and Big Biz..
you might as well be pissing in the wind for all the good it actually does..

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(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 8:43:27 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Why can't we do anything about this? I used to think that if the people learned about what was going on and about potential threats to their freedom, they'd wake up, organize, and do something about it. I thought maybe the OWS had some potential, but that seemed to fizzle out rather quickly. I don't think it's a matter of "can't," but rather, a matter of "won't." People won't do anything about the current situation, even though they have the freedom to speak and the power to vote.


The "power to speak"??? the "power to vote"???



You may laugh, but I see the freedom to speak exercised every day. Even here in this forum, we can see people exercising their rights, and even those with strong anti-government views don't seem to be disappearing without trace.

Same for the power to vote. People go out to the polls at every primary, caucus, and election. They can vote for anyone they want, but for some reason, they keep electing the same group of assholes every time. So, the way I see it, it's not that the people can't do anything, but that they won't.

Even if we didn't have the right to vote or speak freely, the people still have the power to change things, so even that's not a good excuse. Absolutist monarchies have been overthrown by popular revolts, so it's always possible to change things, no matter how "free" or "not free" people happen to be at any given time.

that wasnt really my point.. the power to speak means very little if the govt doesnt listen or give a shite.. and the power to vote means very little if there is no one worthy of voting for.. sure, you can go thru the motions but what has that got ya so far? both parties in the govt is run entirely by the 1% and Big Biz..
you might as well be pissing in the wind for all the good it actually does..


Yeah, but I still maintain that it's really up to the people. If the people don't want to do anything for change or reform, then we'll see a government run by the 1% and Big Biz. They couldn't do it without the cooperation of the people.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 8:52:10 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Yeah, but I still maintain that it's really up to the people. If the people don't want to do anything for change or reform, then we'll see a government run by the 1% and Big Biz. They couldn't do it without the cooperation of the people.

sure, people are allowing it to happen cuz to actually do something about it would make them a criminal & face serious jail time if the overthrow didnt succeed (OWS protestors have already been described as "domestic terrorists").. I see the US as being on a downward slide.. the best place for a person to be is.. to just make a lot of money and become one of the 1%ers (then at least you have choices).. if ya cant beat em, join em.. as they say..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 7/24/2013 8:53:12 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 9:27:43 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
They couldn't do it without the cooperation of the people.

History argues otherwise, Chile being an obvious example.

Or as Kissinger put it:

quote:

I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people


_____________________________

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Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 10:28:20 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Yeah, but I still maintain that it's really up to the people. If the people don't want to do anything for change or reform, then we'll see a government run by the 1% and Big Biz. They couldn't do it without the cooperation of the people.

sure, people are allowing it to happen cuz to actually do something about it would make them a criminal & face serious jail time if the overthrow didnt succeed (OWS protestors have already been described as "domestic terrorists").. I see the US as being on a downward slide.. the best place for a person to be is.. to just make a lot of money and become one of the 1%ers (then at least you have choices).. if ya cant beat em, join em.. as they say..


Even then, it's not necessary for people to rise up and overthrow anything. All they need to do is vote for somebody different. Sure, it might sound like it's going through the motions and that there's no one worthy to vote for, but there are choices offered at the primary and general elections. People do have a choice, especially at the primary level. If there's no one worthy to vote for at the general election, it's only because of the choices made by the primary voters.

And I can actually see why no one worthy really wants to put themselves on the line. In order for a single candidate or elected official to fight against the machine, it's absolutely vital that they would have the active support of the general public - which isn't forthcoming any time soon. I know quite a few people who are brilliant, talented, and with strong leadership skills - the kind of people who this country needs to step up and get us out of the shit. But people like that aren't going to step up to lead this country any time soon, and I don't blame them one bit. From their point of view, I can see where they might think that the public isn't worthy of them and their abilities.

I like to think about it this way: Suppose you had every poster from a given message board (like this one) all in the same room together, and you had to get up and make a speech and convince these people to vote for you, enduring endless heckles, smart-ass remarks, and tons of bullshit from the hoi polloi. I can see where it would be somewhat discouraging. It takes a very thick skin to be a politician, I think, and the only ones who seem to survive are those who have thick skulls to match.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 3:53:23 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I know quite a few people who are brilliant, talented, and with strong leadership skills - the kind of people who this country needs to step up and get us out of the shit.

well,.. ya had yer chance to elect Romney!..

I do agree, the people that are brilliant, talented with the right kinda leadership arent applying for the job.. they are too busy making money.. lol.. and I dont blame them either.. I know I wouldnt want to be a politician and fight the gridlock, the lobbying and having to give up your principles to get something passed that has been hacked to bits and barely resembles what you had in mind.. It is a pretty thankless job and so thats why you get the scum jumping in instead cuz they have alterior motives and are power-mad..

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 4:19:33 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That there is not a single couple who has had a legal same sex marriage in the UK? In Germany? The Czech Republic? Greece? Italy? Turkey? Russia?
Not the weasel word separate-but-unequal discrimination of the 'civil unions' that the homophobes demanded, but a fully equal marriage license?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Europe#Current_situation


On what planet is that fact 'crap'?



On the planet Powergamz, obviously......Or are you suggesting the laws in other countries are not infact laws ?



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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 4:21:34 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

LOL PS he knows that gay marriage has just been signed by her maj PS hes splittin hairs hoping for bait



Fuck him. His fishing tactics wont wash with me Lucy.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 4:27:19 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Not to rehash a previous argument, but to rehash a previous argument, Europeans were more free before the EU. Someone said the EU is nothing but a trade agreement but that is bullshit.



The original concept was sold to the people as a trade agreement, which is why our Government won the original referendum on the EU. It has morphed since conception though, which is why Cameron is trying to hold off on his promise of another referendum on the issue.

Edited to trim quotes.


< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 7/24/2013 4:32:52 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 4:59:38 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Not to rehash a previous argument, but to rehash a previous argument, Europeans were more free before the EU.


Again, the word 'free' needs to be interrogated. Freedom isn't self-evidently maximised as a result of having just one tier of government over you.

I like it that our national government is regularly questioned, tripped up and sometimes even flatly blocked by Europe. Europe frequently does a better job of opposing our government than does the opposition party in Parliament.

Governments know damned well that the way to control the populace is by divide and rule. I like it that we, the populace, have some small means of screwing up their power in the same manner. For me, the more that the powerful are pecking at each others' heels, the better. *That* is how democracy works best.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/24/2013 9:51:52 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		At least americans still have wars now and then, I will count that as another freedom to fight as a soldier.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 12:35:27 AM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Not to rehash a previous argument, but to rehash a previous argument, Europeans were more free before the EU.


Again, the word 'free' needs to be interrogated. Freedom isn't self-evidently maximised as a result of having just one tier of government over you.

I like it that our national government is regularly questioned, tripped up and sometimes even flatly blocked by Europe. Europe frequently does a better job of opposing our government than does the opposition party in Parliament.

Governments know damned well that the way to control the populace is by divide and rule. I like it that we, the populace, have some small means of screwing up their power in the same manner. For me, the more that the powerful are pecking at each others' heels, the better. *That* is how democracy works best.

And Peon is probably MI5 if it need to be interrorgated

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 6:59:17 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I know quite a few people who are brilliant, talented, and with strong leadership skills - the kind of people who this country needs to step up and get us out of the shit.

well,.. ya had yer chance to elect Romney!..

I do agree, the people that are brilliant, talented with the right kinda leadership arent applying for the job.. they are too busy making money.. lol.. and I dont blame them either.. I know I wouldnt want to be a politician and fight the gridlock, the lobbying and having to give up your principles to get something passed that has been hacked to bits and barely resembles what you had in mind.. It is a pretty thankless job and so thats why you get the scum jumping in instead cuz they have alterior motives and are power-mad..


Have you ever seen the movie The Candidate? It's a bit dated (1972), but a lot of it would still apply today. What I find interesting is watching how Robert Redford's character changes from the way he is at the beginning to how he is at the end. Even those who get into politics for the right reasons, it shows just how grueling and consuming it is on the campaign trail and how it can wear a person down.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 7:05:46 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Have you ever seen the movie The Candidate? It's a bit dated (1972), but a lot of it would still apply today. What I find interesting is watching how Robert Redford's character changes from the way he is at the beginning to how he is at the end. Even those who get into politics for the right reasons, it shows just how grueling and consuming it is on the campaign trail and how it can wear a person down.


I dont think I have seen that movie.. I think if Obama had any good intentions when he first became Prez, those were quickly mutilated.. imo that is why his hair turned grey so fast!..

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 8:53:29 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Europeans can walk into any hospital and get free treatment, even if you are in another country... Would I swap that for the sake of a bit less tax..........No, not in a million years.


dito...

I'm also glad that we have again tuition free universities over here...cause whilst we had in some counties uni fees introduced (on a pretty low scale compared to the UK and the US) either some or all of the remaining few ones got now demolished again (am not up to date which view counties still had it but here in bavaria they got demolished after a public vote on it).

I like it, that we have the freedom that school/uni is not dependent on how much cash your parents can afford.

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 9:08:45 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
In the US the' one day have the freedom to be on CM, whereby if they were aborted they would never know this pleasure.


Is it too late to get myself aborted?




Euthenaisia, and eugenics is ALSO less happening in the US.

You can not kill innocent babies- when so many would adopt them. No one has the that "right"- it is MURDER. And for the deceased- they are not very "free"


Yanno....I think all the pupils who got murdered at all the unneccessary school schootings are also not happy that their life has been taken thanks to the lax gun law from the US...

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 9:23:36 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The obvious differences are obvious. In America, thousands of legally married same sex couples are free to go anywhere in the nation that they want and suffer no legal reprisals. In the UK and other countries in Europe... there still are no legally married same sex couples. France seems more free than the rest on that metric. (Even Canada won't recognize US gay marriages).



*koff* thats what I call bullshit per excellence...

As a gay couple you can marry since

- 2001 in the Netherlands,

- 2003 ín Belgium

- 2005 in Spain

- 2009 in Norway and Sweden

- 2010 Portugal and Iceland

- 2012 Denmark

and so on, to be found on here: www.hosiwien.at/?page_id=108 (but ist written in German).

Over here in Germany the state just recently changed a law that now same sex partnerships get the same tax codes applied which a heterosexual couple would get and they can claim that back all the years they are legally a couple now.

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 9:45:53 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Europe is not a single country. Try to learn more about the world.

A country would be Italy, or the Czech Republic, etc. as I listed.

And the homophobe's 'separate but unequal' civil unions, are not the same as a marriage license from the government, unless every single marriage in that country has been voided and replaced by civil unions. Which as you well know, hasn't happened..


So explain again, how it is bullshit (BTW, the term is 'par excellence'... it is French, hate to break it to you, but people don't all speak English everywhere in the world) to claim that there are no legally *married* couples in the countries *that I listed*, but lots of legally married same sex couples in the US?

Instead of strawmanning by dishonestly listing countries that I never claimed, or pretending that 'gay couples living together is the same as a legal marriage license... Simply prove me wrong by linking to the number of legally married same sex couples in the UK, etc. today, or link to proof that there are no legally married same sex couples in the US.

Of course we both know you won't be doing so, because you are simply making up the fraudulent assertion that I lied.

So all I'm hearing is whining over the fact that same sex couples can get married in the US.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The obvious differences are obvious. In America, thousands of legally married same sex couples are free to go anywhere in the nation that they want and suffer no legal reprisals. In the UK and other countries in Europe... there still are no legally married same sex couples. France seems more free than the rest on that metric. (Even Canada won't recognize US gay marriages).



*koff* thats what I call bullshit per excellence...

As a gay couple you can marry since

- 2001 in the Netherlands,

- 2003 ín Belgium

- 2005 in Spain

- 2009 in Norway and Sweden

- 2010 Portugal and Iceland

- 2012 Denmark

and so on, to be found on here: www.hosiwien.at/?page_id=108 (but ist written in German).

Over here in Germany the state just recently changed a law that now same sex partnerships get the same tax codes applied which a heterosexual couple would get and they can claim that back all the years they are legally a couple now.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/25/2013 9:51:22 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 9:51:42 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
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ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Europeans can walk into any hospital and get free treatment, even if you are in another country... Would I swap that for the sake of a bit less tax..........No, not in a million years.


BULLSHIT Europeans cannot walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment you really wanna test this statement with me?

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
Profile   Post #: 100
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