RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!!

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:00:38 PM)
Sorry Ken in my haste to make a point I cut your name off... I do get carried away now and then...[:D]

DomKen -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:02:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, no one even knows whether or not the rafters were on a part of the gravel bar that they had the right to be on. There is a lot of fuss being made about the waterline issue, but does anyone know where this altercation even took place in relationship to the waterline? That aspect of prosecution is moot if the man who was shot had crossed the waterline. That is my holding point. We dont know exactly where this altercation took place. Reading various reports, and the statement given by the police.... In the court papers, Detective Zachary A. Driskill of the Crawford County Sheriff's Office explains that he interviewed Crocker after the shooting. Crocker told him he had seen a man urinating and told him to leave the gravel bar. Crocker "stated that he told the male that the gravel bar was his property and he did not want him to urinate there and that he needed to leave," Driskill wrote. Crocker said the man refused to leave. Crocker walked back to his vehicle and then turned back and again walked back to the gravel bar. When Crocker returned, men were yelling at him "stating that they weren't going to leave and that the gravel bar was public property." http://eyeondentcounty.typepad.com/ Now, according to that, it all centers around the gravel bar. The man who was shot wasnt the man who trespassed. If the picture up thread is accurate that gravel bed is definitely below the high water mark and therefore legally part of the public way.

kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:02:24 PM)
lol... first they were not in their vehicles and the shooter was not trying to take them or damage them...so they would be irrelevant to this case I would think. Butch

DomKen -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub lol... first they were not in their vehicles and the shooter was not trying to take them or damage them...so they would be irrelevant to this case I would think. Butch Does the law require the attacker be trying to take or damage the vehicle? I'm having some trouble actually finding the Missouri state code.

tazzygirl -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:05:04 PM)
~FR Here is the public statement by Sheriff http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/155381874?access_key=key-60dvjjk1klxs7k51fte&allow_share=true

kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:05:20 PM)
Maybe I am wrong but I think THIS is it. Butch

BamaD -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Missouri's SYG removed the rafters duty to retreat Maybe I am opening a can of worms here but Missouri's SYG law would NOT cover the floaters. It only covers Home and vehicle unlike Florida's law. Now self defense could come into play but remember the last aggressive move before the shooting was not by the shooter. Again I am just saying what the shooters lawyer will say... And I think a jury will not buy it. Butch Remember for a point of reference he said earlier that the rafters should have beaten Crocker to death as soon as they saw a gun.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:07:23 PM)
[8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Were some of the rafters in their rafts, which legally are vehicles? Yeah.... they were standing up in their 'vehicles', zooming down the river, and pissing on the guy's property 50 yards away. I repeat.... [8\|]

BamaD -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:08:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, no one even knows whether or not the rafters were on a part of the gravel bar that they had the right to be on. There is a lot of fuss being made about the waterline issue, but does anyone know where this altercation even took place in relationship to the waterline? That aspect of prosecution is moot if the man who was shot had crossed the waterline. That is my holding point. We dont know exactly where this altercation took place. Reading various reports, and the statement given by the police.... In the court papers, Detective Zachary A. Driskill of the Crawford County Sheriff's Office explains that he interviewed Crocker after the shooting. Crocker told him he had seen a man urinating and told him to leave the gravel bar. Crocker "stated that he told the male that the gravel bar was his property and he did not want him to urinate there and that he needed to leave," Driskill wrote. Crocker said the man refused to leave. Crocker walked back to his vehicle and then turned back and again walked back to the gravel bar. When Crocker returned, men were yelling at him "stating that they weren't going to leave and that the gravel bar was public property." http://eyeondentcounty.typepad.com/ Now, according to that, it all centers around the gravel bar. The man who was shot wasnt the man who trespassed. No the man who was shot was the one who made a swipe at Crocker's gun.

DomKen -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:10:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Missouri's SYG removed the rafters duty to retreat Maybe I am opening a can of worms here but Missouri's SYG law would NOT cover the floaters. It only covers Home and vehicle unlike Florida's law. Now self defense could come into play but remember the last aggressive move before the shooting was not by the shooter. Again I am just saying what the shooters lawyer will say... And I think a jury will not buy it. Butch Remember for a point of reference he said earlier that the rafters should have beaten Crocker to death as soon as they saw a gun. No. After he shot at them. Then they were definitely entitled to use deadly force in self defense. Crocker of course doesn't get to argue self defense since he initiated the encounter and never made any attempt to break it off.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:11:30 PM)
Isn't that the same logic used to persuade the Zimmerman jury to return a guilty verdict? Only instead of following while brown, this guy committed the heinous premeditated crime of actually buying the property long before these rafters were innocently driving their 'vehicles' down the right way. Clearly he was stalking them all along. [8\|] [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No. After he shot at them. Then they were definitely entitled to use deadly force in self defense. Crocker of course doesn't get to argue self defense since he initiated the encounter and never made any attempt to break it off.

kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub lol... first they were not in their vehicles and the shooter was not trying to take them or damage them...so they would be irrelevant to this case I would think. Butch Does the law require the attacker be trying to take or damage the vehicle? I'm having some trouble actually finding the Missouri state code. It says the attacker must be trying to enter the vehicle... was he trying to get in their rafts? Butch

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:15:37 PM)
I wonder how that 'duty to retreat' plays out in a raft... the same way it does when lying on your back with someone on top of you? Or do you have to make the raft float upstream? quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Missouri's SYG removed the rafters duty to retreat Maybe I am opening a can of worms here but Missouri's SYG law would NOT cover the floaters. It only covers Home and vehicle unlike Florida's law. Now self defense could come into play but remember the last aggressive move before the shooting was not by the shooter. Again I am just saying what the shooters lawyer will say... And I think a jury will not buy it. Butch Remember for a point of reference he said earlier that the rafters should have beaten Crocker to death as soon as they saw a gun.

tazzygirl -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:15:59 PM)
Crocker told police the shooting came as the culmination of a dispute over whether the group was trespassing or not, and he fired after a man approached him with rocks in his hands. Paul Dart wasn’t the one with the rocks. “I just shot the one closest to me,” Crocker said, according to police. ....... Then, Loretta Dart said, her cousin picked up a rock. (Crocker told police the man had a rock in each hand.) Her husband stood between her cousin and the gunman. “My husband tried to calm the guy down,” Loretta Dart said. “He went to the guy’s arm to try to stop him, but the guy jerked back and popped him in the face.”

kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:18:17 PM)
I think this will be his downfall...even though he was on his land...or could be Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 10:21:43 PM)
650,000 bond, cash only.... tells you something right there

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 11:02:03 PM)
The guy with the gun committed assault first by appearing and firing the weapon or displaying it in a threatening manner. At that point he cannot claim self defense. quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 No amount of pointless discussion about waterways and easements is going to take away any American citizen's right to self defense, no matter how badly you wish that right to be reserved for the elite.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 11:10:22 PM)
Easement rights extend to the high water mark, per federal law. That gravel bar is submerged during several months of the year.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/25/2013 11:17:20 PM)
By 'appearing'? In a puff of smoke? ROTFLMAO!!! Dream on. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The guy with the gun committed assault first by appearing and firing the weapon or displaying it in a threatening manner. At that point he cannot claim self defense. quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 No amount of pointless discussion about waterways and easements is going to take away any American citizen's right to self defense, no matter how badly you wish that right to be reserved for the elite.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/26/2013 3:36:57 AM)
Basically the land owner had a bad attitude, wanted to throw his weight around with a gun, none of it would have ever happened, if he hadn't brought a gun to backup his temper tantrum about bodily functions on his supposed land. I hope he is prosecuted to the full extent of the law which includes anger management classes. I have to say, the floaters, should have said no problem buddy and floated quietly away, but their judgment obviously was impaired. Here is another story. We sold our farm of 25 yrs and never had ONE PROBLEM with our neighbors! Not one. We all helped each other in fact. I am not sure the exact laws, but when in comes to hunting, a deer stand is suppose to be so many feet off the property boundary of the adjoining neighbors. Our neighbor of 25 yrs had always had a deer stand by our property a little to close, 25 foot or so, we didn't care at all. Responsible respectable hunters, so why would be squabble about 25 foot? When the new guy bought our old property, he walked the property line with a gun, and came across the neighbor in the woods. It was hunting season so the other neighbor had a gun too in his deer stand. The new property owner yelled up to him "Hey you are going to have to move this stand it is to close to MY PROPERTY." THe neighbor replied "Its been here 25 yrs" THe new property owner said has he examined his gun ' well that was then and this is now. move it within the week' The already established neighbor said " WHen I get a chance Ill move it, but be careful out here, its hunting season, accidents can happen" How well do you think this new property owner will fare in this area? To date their house hasn't been built, and the deer stand hasn't been moved, that was 10 months ago. He didn't even try to have a civil conversation, his first response was to spout off with a gun.

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