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ORIGINAL: BamaD

NOT A RESPONSE TO ANYONE
A couple of things to think about.
1 How did he know they were there?

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2 That part of the river was being occupied by so many "partiers " being drunk and disorderly that some of the neighbors couldn't go to the river on their own property,

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3 The warning shots can be seen and will be portrayed as a desire to avoid shooting anyone.

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4 A ex ranger would know that swiping the gun aside would escalate things, not calm them down.

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5 When the "experts" say that it is often hard to see were the public area end you can't expect a backwoods farmer to make that judgment in the heat of the moment.

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6 How much alcohol had the floaters consumed?

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I AM NOT SAYING INNOCENT JUST POINTING OUT MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH MAY VERY WELL LEAD TO MANSLAUGHTER NOT MURDER

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That has nothing to do with my post.

I was responding to the claim that simply walking around removes the right to self defense because it is 'aggression'. That was debunked in the Zimmerman trial, and it is equally untrue here.

Shooting at people is an entirely different matter but simply 'appearing' on your own property isn't an assault.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Maybe you should read posts more thoroughly. Check my statement with close attention to the conjunction which adds to someone appearing. So now how does your comment relate to my post when it clearly stated "and shooting" in it?

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That has nothing to do with my post.

I was responding to the claim that simply walking around removes the right to self defense because it is 'aggression'. That was debunked in the Zimmerman trial, and it is equally untrue here.

Shooting at people is an entirely different matter but simply 'appearing' on your own property isn't an assault.

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Here is a story I feel where taking the law into your own hands hold merit.
We lived on a farm, way out in the middle of nowhere land. We had one direct neighbor who lived right across the road down a lane. Our other neighbors closest to us lived almost a mile from us. A rash of equipment, farm supplies, and ATV burglaries were going on in two counties. Our ATV was stolen twice. First time, it was recovered, by a routine traffic stop and the vin numbers were checked, found it was stolen, and the guy went to jail for probation violation for 3 yrs. 5 months later the same ATV was stolen again! IT was never found. Luckily we had insurance. Both times they were stole in the middle of the night.
Approximately a month later, our neighbor had his ATV idoling by the side of his house, as he went in for something before he fed their animals. He hears the thing take off, and some guy is zooming down the lane toward the road. Our neighbor, jumps in his truck, with his rifle, chases the guy who takes off thru a field toward the creek, neighbor just starts driving thru the bean field on the other neighbors property to catch him, and pretty soon that neighbor is chasing after the guy with his ATV. They yelled for him to stop but he wasn't going too, so he was shot at a few times with buck shot. The ATV was found over the side of an eroded bank in the creek bed, There was so blood, and when the police got there, they had to go by ATV to examine the scene. The man was never found. THe blood was either from the wreck, buck shot, or both. BUt our neighbor didn't have insurance and he knew if he lost his ATV his life was going to get much harder. He did not threaten with a gun until he felt attacked. And yes we had people we had to run off our property, but a gun was never waved at them, unless they decided to refuse a peaceful ending. If someone would have entered our house, in the dark, or attacked from the start in other circumstances they probably would be shot.

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Didn't you just say that a history of property problems justified shooting someone in the back, after chasing them down the road and off your land?

Maybe this guy had been putting up with the locals using his land as a party dump for a while.

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24






That is not what I said. You have no idea what you are talking about at all. Its prime well taken care of property.
Would you like to go hunting and see? [:D]
I think I will leave you to debate with yourself now.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

She never said he was going "for" his arm.... or are you not wanting to see that?

I can go to someone's side, and not be attacking them... I can go for someone's side and be attacking.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

NOT A RESPONSE TO ANYONE
A couple of things to think about.
1 How did he know they were there?

Likely they were a bit noisy talking back and forth to each other, but who knows.

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2 That part of the river was being occupied by so many "partiers " being drunk and disorderly that some of the neighbors couldn't go to the river on their own property,

If they were breaking the law you call the cops, just like if they were on the street in front of your property, or tell them to move on without brandishing a weapon in a threatening manner.

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3 The warning shots can be seen and will be portrayed as a desire to avoid shooting anyone.

Possibly but shooting at the feet of one of them is clear assault from how I understand assault.

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4 A ex ranger would know that swiping the gun aside would escalate things, not calm them down.

I think the two things have been run together. From what I gather he tried to calm things down and only when the gun was pointed at someone did he try to go for the guys arm to prevent a shooting.

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5 When the "experts" say that it is often hard to see were the public area end you can't expect a backwoods farmer to make that judgment in the heat of the moment.

According to the locals around here, everyone knows that the high water mark is where the easement ends. They also say if there are problems with partiers on a regular basis then DNR is pretty strict and responds well.

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6 How much alcohol had the floaters consumed?

Likely have to assess that on an individual basis but I am not sure how that plays into things.

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I AM NOT SAYING INNOCENT JUST POINTING OUT MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH MAY VERY WELL LEAD TO MANSLAUGHTER NOT MURDER

Possibly but if Federal law is upheld then they had a right to be there and him brandishing a gun and shooting close to one of them seems to clearly be assault, which eliminates any self defense on the shooters part.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

She never said he was going "for" his arm.... or are you not wanting to see that?

I can go to someone's side, and not be attacking them... I can go for someone's side and be attacking.

I see your problem the son gave more detail saying he was swiping the gun out of the way, you clearly didn't have that information.

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How many of you reading this thread if honest would have the same reaction to the thought of blacks in this situation as I did?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

She never said he was going "for" his arm.... or are you not wanting to see that?

I can go to someone's side, and not be attacking them... I can go for someone's side and be attacking.

I see your problem the son gave more detail saying he was swiping the gun out of the way, you clearly didn't have that information.

I see the only mention of "swiping" on this thread was made by you. Where is your information coming from.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

I’ve been talking about personal feelings on race in a few threads lately mostly because of the Zimmerman story. I decided that when I do talk on this subject I will be honest in my perceptions even if it does brand me racists to some. I didn’t believe I was but when thinking of this thread I wondered to myself what if the rafters were a group of African Americans that were drinking would I feel differently?

Damn…If I didn’t. All along I have been thinking the property owner was a nutcase gun toting fanatic that murdered a man in cold blood. But… Just by thinking of the rafters as black all of a sudden I could see myself looking at the situation in a different way. A purely racist way of looking at things. This will make me reevaluate my sanctimonious claim of equality of races in my mind.

I think I am beginning to understand what some African Americans are saying about whites and racism in America and where I didn’t believe it true in the past I am believing it now…just by my reaction.

I still don’t believe I am racists consciously but I wonder if I am acting and thinking as a racists without even realizing it unless forced to honestly look closely at my feelings.

How many of you reading this thread if honest would have the same reaction to the thought of blacks in this situation as I did?

Butch

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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How many of you reading this thread if honest would have the same reaction to the thought of blacks in this situation as I did?

I can honestly say I never thought about it in that aspect. But I am sure its easier for me not to see race given my own history. For many, and this is just my own belief, I dont think many are consciously racist. But its still there. If a white man came up on your porch, you would be wary. If its a black man, how would you feel?

I have always looked like a "white" girl. The time when I was followed back and forth across the street, my follower was white. For myself, I have never had a moment of discomfort around a black person. I think our histories color our perspectives. I also grew up in the military, where race was not commented upon... ever. My dad told me years after he got out of the service how he was treated, passed over for promotions, getting the shit duties, being called a "damn injun" by a CO.

It happens. You learn to move on. But it was easier for me than for my brothers. I dont see people in terms of skin color... I see them as people. Its not color that makes me afraid of a person, its actions and attitude.

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Just curious, if not too personal, do you look at whites with distrust after the treatment of your father?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Skinner v. Osage County, 822 S.W.2d 437
(1991)

I keep seeing this case cited in reference to the gravel bars.

I couldnt shoot someone accessing the beach if they used the "public easement" from my house. Its my understanding that if they were below the water mark, its not considered "private property". He may own it, but its still not property he can drive people off from.

The "expert" in the Post Dispatch article didn't seem sure about where it ended for his explanation the law is unclear there.

Because the exact gravel bar's water level is still in question. I would think someone from that area would know for sure if the gravel bar was under water part of the year or not.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For many, and this is just my own belief, I dont think many are consciously racist. But its still there. If a white man came up on your porch, you would be wary. If its a black man, how would you feel?

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I am catching up on this thread, and this may have been answered already. but the fact that it was a gravel bar or sand bar, makes it unquestionably below the high water mark by its very nature

have been on a few float trips in missouri and many years ago having a mild interest in kayaking, and being a plumber and knowing the nature of water, a gravel bar is a gravel bar because the dirt has been washed away leaving only the heavier rocks behind...
even if it only under water for a short period of time each year it still qulaifies it as below the high water mark

its fairly rare that DIRT remains below a high water mark, and in those cases it usually a HIGH verticle bank that during low water you would be hard pressed to easily exit any small craft onto...

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Skinner v. Osage County, 822 S.W.2d 437
(1991)

I keep seeing this case cited in reference to the gravel bars.

I couldnt shoot someone accessing the beach if they used the "public easement" from my house. Its my understanding that if they were below the water mark, its not considered "private property". He may own it, but its still not property he can drive people off from.

The "expert" in the Post Dispatch article didn't seem sure about where it ended for his explanation the law is unclear there.

Because the exact gravel bar's water level is still in question. I would think someone from that area would know for sure if the gravel bar was under water part of the year or not.

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ORIGINAL: graceadieu

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For many, and this is just my own belief, I dont think many are consciously racist. But its still there. If a white man came up on your porch, you would be wary. If its a black man, how would you feel?

I very much agree. I think most people in this day and age don't actually really believe that black people are stupid, lazy, dangerous, or inferior in some other way. But a whole lot of people still feel that black men are scary, and that affects their judgement in ways that they may not realize.