quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This so absurd it is clearly not rational
Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program. There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.
The NSA data gathering is serious but by all accounts it has actually been reined in since Bush's warrantless wiretaps.
Calling an IRS program that made organizations asking for a status the law says they are not entitled to and that even the weird interpretation of that law by the IRS makes their eligibility doubtful wait a little longer and fill out some additional paperwork a scandal is so bizarre I really have to wonder what cons are thinking.

Consider this even after years of investigations by Issa and his cronies not a single Obama administration official has been even indicted for something related to his job. At this same point in the W administration numerous political appointees had been indicted and several were already convicted of very serious crimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States#2001.E2.80.932009_George_W._Bush_Administration

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This so absurd it is clearly not rational
Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program. There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.
The NSA data gathering is serious but by all accounts it has actually been reined in since Bush's warrantless wiretaps.
Calling an IRS program that made organizations asking for a status the law says they are not entitled to and that even the weird interpretation of that law by the IRS makes their eligibility doubtful wait a little longer and fill out some additional paperwork a scandal is so bizarre I really have to wonder what cons are thinking.

quote:

Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program.There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This so absurd it is clearly not rational
Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program. There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.
The NSA data gathering is serious but by all accounts it has actually been reined in since Bush's warrantless wiretaps.
Calling an IRS program that made organizations asking for a status the law says they are not entitled to and that even the weird interpretation of that law by the IRS makes their eligibility doubtful wait a little longer and fill out some additional paperwork a scandal is so bizarre I really have to wonder what cons are thinking.

FactlessKen: Your misrepresentations of people positions occur so often that you can only be a democratic operative.

quote:

The issue (for the 'bout 1100'th time) is that the Obama administration delayed these applications so they couldn't participate in the elections.

quote:

The issue is the politicization of the white house - from an administration that promised to be the most transparant in history. Its funny how - when it just involved rogue agents in cincinatti it was a serious scandal that would be gotten to the bottom of.

Now, that it has gone up the food chain and threatens his political appointee - its a 'phony scandal'. Democrat talking point #4.

quote:

Fast and Furious was never a bush program. Thats just an absolute fabrication. And there is plenty of evidence a political appointee was involved. Holder was found to have lied to Congress on numerous times - like saying he would never approve of such an operation. Fortunately, the potential fall kept a copy of the signed order - so when they tried to make him the fall guy.. it was 'not so fast'.

quote:

Eric Holder - the only attorney general to be found in contempt of congress.

quote:

The NSA scandal has not been reined in. Once again factless ken makes assertions without a shred of evidence as opposed to the copious links I provided.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program.There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.

BS

2006–2008: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes:

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007.

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious:

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels.

quote:

The operation began on October 31, 2009, when a local gun store reported to the Phoenix ATF that four individuals had purchased multiple AK47 style rifles.[42] In November 2009, the Phoenix office's Group VII, which would be the lead investigative group in Fast and Furious, began to follow a prolific gun trafficker

quote:

soo to RECAP, F&F was NOT a continuation of a bush program in fact one had ended a full TWO YEARS before the F&F program began.

and of the 5 people who started the whole thing rolling THREE were direct obama appointees, one was an appointee of an obama appointee, and obama apparently likes the only other one on the list!

OPPPPSSSSSS

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program.There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.

BS

2006–2008: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes:

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007.

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious:

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels.

The Arizona agent that started the gunwalking program did not attend that meeting and the memo that he received from that meeting did not include anything about gunwalking.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/11/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110811

quote:

The operation began on October 31, 2009, when a local gun store reported to the Phoenix ATF that four individuals had purchased multiple AK47 style rifles.[42] In November 2009, the Phoenix office's Group VII, which would be the lead investigative group in Fast and Furious, began to follow a prolific gun trafficker

So you even admit the operation was started by the ATF Arizona field office. Why write all the rest of this post?

quote:

soo to RECAP, F&F was NOT a continuation of a bush program in fact one had ended a full TWO YEARS before the F&F program began.

and of the 5 people who started the whole thing rolling THREE were direct obama appointees, one was an appointee of an obama appointee, and obama apparently likes the only other one on the list!

OPPPPSSSSSS

So to recap it was initiated by the same ATF field office that conducted Operation Wide Receiver and as part of the larger Project Gunrunner operation that is definitely a Bush era operation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program.There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.

BS

2006–2008: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes:

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007.

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious:

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels.

The Arizona agent that started the gunwalking program did not attend that meeting and the memo that he received from that meeting did not include anything about gunwalking.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/11/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110811

quote:

The operation began on October 31, 2009, when a local gun store reported to the Phoenix ATF that four individuals had purchased multiple AK47 style rifles.[42] In November 2009, the Phoenix office's Group VII, which would be the lead investigative group in Fast and Furious, began to follow a prolific gun trafficker

So you even admit the operation was started by the ATF Arizona field office. Why write all the rest of this post?

quote:

soo to RECAP, F&F was NOT a continuation of a bush program in fact one had ended a full TWO YEARS before the F&F program began.

and of the 5 people who started the whole thing rolling THREE were direct obama appointees, one was an appointee of an obama appointee, and obama apparently likes the only other one on the list!

OPPPPSSSSSS

So to recap it was initiated by the same ATF field office that conducted Operation Wide Receiver and as part of the larger Project Gunrunner operation that is definitely a Bush era operation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

The Arizona agent that started the gunwalking program did not attend that meeting and the memo that he received from that meeting did not include anything about gunwalking.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/11/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110811

NOOOOO it was started, "On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C."

and while the MEMO didn't say DO gun walking, it also did not say, LETS NOT MAKE THE SAMEMISTAKE that was made in op wide reciever either now did it?


sooo what WAS in the memo, GIT ER DONE!

this QUOTE from the article/link YOU POSTED, "Indeed, according to memos, emails and other material obtained by The Times, along with transcripts of sworn depositions and Capitol Hill testimony, the Justice Department provided the initial impetus for what became Fast and Furious.

In October 2009, officials in the office of then-Deputy Atty. Gen. David W. Ogden, the No. 2 slot under Holder, sent a nine-page memo to supervisors on the border. Called the "Department of Justice Strategy for Combating the Mexican Cartels," it specifically instructed the ATF to broaden its scope to "identify, investigate and eliminate" the cartels. This approach, the memo added, "ensures that scarce ATF resources are directed at the most important targets."

The memo did not suggest agents purposely allow illegal purchasers to walk away with guns, and Justice Department officials insist they never approved the "operational" concept for Fast and Furious. Nevertheless, the ATF viewed the memo as marching orders

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


What Hoover did in the day he (understandably) kept as secret as possible.

Now we have created a new cabinet department with a huge budget for use of the same techniques, if not quite for same purpose of personal agenda.

If the NSA ever even sought a warrant for what they have been doing from the start, I'd like to see it. (likewise Interpol, MI6, Mossad, KGB, etc.) If Google and MS Explorer and Facebook and Experian and TransUnion and Equifax ever sought a warrant for doing what they've been doing from the start, I'd like to see it.

For some reason, it doesn't come as surprise here that some of those who derided those for having concerns about private airport mentally-minimal security contractor personnel strip-searching and feeling up granny now all of a sudden come out of the woodwork to express their righteous indignation! when this same granny has her phone convo listened in on by public security professionals, who apparently unbeknownst to them, have been at it for decades, all with out laying one finger on granny. And she kept her clothes on in any case.

This just isn't the same world anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

Fast & Furious was a very minor program that was a continuation of a Bush era program.There is absolutely no evidence a political appointee was involved.

BS

2006–2008: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes:

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007.

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious:

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels.

The Arizona agent that started the gunwalking program did not attend that meeting and the memo that he received from that meeting did not include anything about gunwalking.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/11/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110811

quote:

The operation began on October 31, 2009, when a local gun store reported to the Phoenix ATF that four individuals had purchased multiple AK47 style rifles.[42] In November 2009, the Phoenix office's Group VII, which would be the lead investigative group in Fast and Furious, began to follow a prolific gun trafficker

So you even admit the operation was started by the ATF Arizona field office. Why write all the rest of this post?

quote:

soo to RECAP, F&F was NOT a continuation of a bush program in fact one had ended a full TWO YEARS before the F&F program began.

and of the 5 people who started the whole thing rolling THREE were direct obama appointees, one was an appointee of an obama appointee, and obama apparently likes the only other one on the list!

OPPPPSSSSSS

So to recap it was initiated by the same ATF field office that conducted Operation Wide Receiver and as part of the larger Project Gunrunner operation that is definitely a Bush era operation.

The Arizona agent that started the gunwalking program did not attend that meeting and the memo that he received from that meeting did not include anything about gunwalking.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/11/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110811

NOOOOO it was started, "On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C."

and while the MEMO didn't say DO gun walking, it also did not say, LETS NOT MAKE THE SAMEMISTAKE that was made in op wide reciever either now did it?


sooo what WAS in the memo, GIT ER DONE!

this QUOTE from the article/link YOU POSTED, "Indeed, according to memos, emails and other material obtained by The Times, along with transcripts of sworn depositions and Capitol Hill testimony, the Justice Department provided the initial impetus for what became Fast and Furious.

In October 2009, officials in the office of then-Deputy Atty. Gen. David W. Ogden, the No. 2 slot under Holder, sent a nine-page memo to supervisors on the border. Called the "Department of Justice Strategy for Combating the Mexican Cartels," it specifically instructed the ATF to broaden its scope to "identify, investigate and eliminate" the cartels. This approach, the memo added, "ensures that scarce ATF resources are directed at the most important targets."

The memo did not suggest agents purposely allow illegal purchasers to walk away with guns, and Justice Department officials insist they never approved the "operational" concept for Fast and Furious. Nevertheless, the ATF viewed the memo as marching orders

isn't that like telling the QB "go out there and RUN A PLAY", then when it loses yardage saying, "WELL I didn't tell him to DO THAT!"?


sorry NOOOO, if I open a bar called wide reciever, then it closes and two years later somone else opens a bar called fast & furious it is NOT a continuation of the orginal bar just because they both serve liquer even if its opened in the same building!


Especially when they run the new bar DIFFERANTLY from the previous bar!

Under the previous Operation Wide Receiver, there had been a formal ATF contract with the cooperating gun dealer and efforts were made to involve the ATF Mexico City Office (MCO) and Mexican law enforcement. Under Operation Fast and Furious, at Newell's insistence the cooperating gun dealers did not have contracts with ATF, and MCO and Mexican police were left in the dark.

also

In order to accomplish it, the office decided to monitor suspicious firearms purchases which federal prosecutors had determined lacked sufficient evidence for prosecution, as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force

On July 10, 2009, Burke was nominated by President Barack Obama to serve as the United States Attorney for the District of Arizona

OH LOOK another obama appointee!

soo here are the FACTS, operation wide reciever ENDED due to miserable results then two years LATER no less than FOUR obama appointees started a WHOLE NEW operation called fast & furious with even LESS SAFEGUARDS somehow thinking it would turn out BETTER!

but it DID NOT!
the result of op wide reciever was

As of October 4, 2011 (2011-10-04)[update], nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[23] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.

and the result of op fast & furious was

By June 2010, suspects had purchased 1,608 firearms at a cost of over US$1 million at Phoenix-area gun shops. At that time, the ATF was also aware of 179 of those weapons being found at crime scenes in Mexico, and 130 in the United States

On the evening of December 14, 2010, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and others were patrolling Peck Canyon, Santa Cruz County, Arizona, 11 miles from the Mexican border. The group came across five suspected illegal immigrants. When they fired non-lethal beanbag guns, the suspects responded with their own weapons, leading to a firefight. Terry was shot and killed; four of the suspects were arrested and two AK-pattern rifles were found nearby.[3] The Attorney General's office was immediately notified of the shooting incident by email.[54] The rifles were traced within hours of the shooting to a Phoenix store involved in the Fast and Furious operation

lets also compare this lil DETAIL

Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[30] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.


Altogether, about 2,000 firearms were bought by straw purchasers during Fast and Furious.[1]:203[3] These included AK-47 variants, Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, .38 caliber revolvers, and FN Five-sevens.[41] As of October 20, 2011 (2011-10-20)[update], 389 had been recovered in the US and 276 had been recovered in Mexico. The rest remained on the streets, unaccounted for.[15] As of February 2012[update], the total number of recovered firearms was 710.


soo 450 lost under op wide reciever and about 1300 lost under F & F. actually thats not quite true either, 2000 lost, 700 recovered AT CRIME SCENES!


you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own FACTS!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Of the largest 100 economic entities, ~ 50 are corporations. The exact number changes from year to year. It's actually a tad lower now the government has had to temporarily take over some of them due to their various and sundry malfeasance, fraud, and outright ineptitude, for which their highest officers were paid aggregate hundreds of millions for the accomplishment, so the numbers are skewed at the moment.

The governments (yes, the European ones too) were the enablers, by dint of hyperderegulation in effort to be 'small government,' but the corporations are responsible for the actual deeds resulting in financial and economic calamity.

That's why I'm for smaller multinationals and mega-conglomerates.