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RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/5/2013 5:09:45 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Note that certain states in the US have made THE ACT a FELONY, not merely promoting it in public.

T^T


They did, once upon a time, like many places (such as the USSR). Lawrence v Texas ended that, years ago.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/5/2013 5:11:47 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

But, just don't go. It is not tricky.

Where should Olympians go instead?

The more interesting question to me is "Where will olympic TV viewers go?" I can't imagine myself watching the olympics if the IOC doesn't do something here.

I suspect strongly depressed viewer numbers would make the point quite strongly.


Right. If Russia is arresting gay athletes and tourists, or even going around saying they will if they come, a lot of people are going to boycott. It's going to hurt them. Not only is this wrong, it's foolish.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/5/2013 6:08:30 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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quote:

They did, once upon a time, like many places (such as the USSR). Lawrence v Texas ended that, years ago.


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/cuccinelli-wants-rehearing-virginias-anti-sodomy-law

Also :

http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2013/07/east_baton_rouge_sheriffs_offi_11.html

When they have the keys to the jail doors and guns, a piece of paper means very little.

Note that in one case, the attorney general who is running (supposedly) for governor doesn't care about any supreme court ruling. In case anyone doesn't know what a state attorney general is, he is an attack dog who works for the governor.

T^T

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/5/2013 6:50:03 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Yeah, I'm not seeing the benefit to the Russians by actually following through on that threat and arresting Olympic competitors from other countries.

If the IOC doesn't grow a pair over that, they're worse than useless.

QFT

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it's never enough to keep up.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/5/2013 8:08:48 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

It's going to hurt them. Not only is this wrong, it's foolish.


What is really sad is it will not hurt them at all... It will even increase viewership I would guess. The average American let alone the average world citizen could not care less about gay athletes and their troubles in Russia. I think they would get a kick out of the uproar it would cause if an athlete was arrested for being homosexual.

You must remember the world attitude towards gays is closer to Russia's view then yours...still. The world has a L O N G way to go before homosexuals are accepted as normal and equal.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/5/2013 8:10:07 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/6/2013 9:01:09 PM   
njlauren


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Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

But, just don't go.


Great suggestion. There are other ways of letting homophobes know just how objectionable this situation is. One option is to decline to purchase any Russian vodka. Chatter on the net suggests that many are already doing this. There are other vodkas on the market for those who are unable to survive without their shots of Stoli or whatever.

So support the unofficial boycott of Russian vodka and get your kicks and chasers elsewhere!



The irony is Stoli isn't really Russian vodka, it is made with Russian grain and alchohol, but distilled I believe in Scotland...so in part it is, I guess.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/6/2013 9:10:06 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

I let this go a while to see if anyone caught on. Russia is not snooping in your emails to see if you are talking dirty to one of the same sex. Russia is not spying on your bedroom antics with wide range spectroscopic cameras from satellites. Russia is not going door to door if you search for the wrong things on the internet.

There really IS NO LAW against homosexuality in Russia.

THE LAW IS AGAINST PROMOTING HOMESEXUALITY.

Now compare that to certain states in which people can be arrested for carnal knowledge by "mouth or anus", and you tell me who has the problem.

And I will tell you what, I DO NOT WANT HOMOSEXUALITY PROMOTED IN PUBLIC. Oh, I am such a bigot ain't I ? Now hear this >

I DO NOT WANT HETEROSEXUALITY PROMOTED IN PUBLIC.

You people got it all fucked up. you know they threw those girls off the bus years ago for kissing. I actually support that. I actually support that if a boy and a girl were doing the same necking and shit, they should also be thrown off the bus as well. But not under it, and also you could just throw one of them off and fix the problem..........

You are all up in arms over foreign laws about which you know nothing. You THINK that if you ever wrote a love letter to another guy you will go to a gulag for a hundred years without a trial and shit. Believe me, the people who used to do that in the USSR have left, and came to the US. (mostly the south)

Welcome them OR ELSE !

T^T

Oh, look, we have a Boris, isn't that nice *snort*..

There is a big difference between Russia and the US, and it isn't small. Russia has regressed and you now have an alliance between the government and the Russian Orthodox Church (yeah, those weird guys with the long beards), which makes the RC and evangelicals look liberal, they aren't just homophobic, they are vicious anti semites, as well, talk to Jews who grew up in the USSR and they would prefer the USSR.

As far as claims of Russia not spying on people, what planet are you on? In Russia, you can be sent away to Jail for being assumed to be gay, and you can be sent to work camps for homosexual sex, and needless to say I don't have to tell you what happens to trans folks. This is a country that sent some musicians to jail because they do protests and such.......and the best that happens to someone who is gay is getting arrested, gay bashings and killings are common as hell.

As far as the government spying on people to see who they have sex with, you must be confusing the US with Russia. While I am sure there are plenty of thugs in the current GOP knuckle dragging era who would love to do that, there is zero evidence of that going on, and oh, yeah, the last sodomy laws regulating sex were heaved by the supreme court 10 years ago (see, the US has a supreme court, unlike Russia, that has Vlad the Impaler deciding everything). Russia bares little resemblance to the US, even at our worst, it is a thugocracy, run by oligarchs and gangsters, and if it wasn't for oil, would probably look like someplace in the middle east more than anything else.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/6/2013 9:16:19 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

But, just don't go. It is not tricky.

Where should Olympians go instead?

The more interesting question to me is "Where will olympic TV viewers go?" I can't imagine myself watching the olympics if the IOC doesn't do something here.

I suspect strongly depressed viewer numbers would make the point quite strongly.

I agree, if they really want to make an impact, boycott the tv coverage and watch what happens. NBC pays a lot of money for rights to the games, and they promise advertisers certain ratings for the fees they charge. If the ratings tank, NBC is going to owe advertisers rebates and extra slots on prime time shows to make up for it, and it is going to hurt them..and if the IOC pisses off the networks, they are in trouble. Among other things, the lead broadcast network allows broadcasters from all over the world to use their feeds and such, and if that system breaks up, it could screw a lot of broadcasters around the world.

The IOC are nothing more then a bunch of crooks with their hands out and have basically no moral values at all, the fact that it was run for years by people like Brundage (who thought the Nazis were smashing good people, and in 1972 when the Israeli Athletes were killed wanted to go on with the games, because who cared if some Jews were killed.., and you expect them to do anything? But hit them where the big money is, and watch what happens. Won't happen, people will gladly watch it, but that would be the way to go.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/6/2013 9:17:50 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Note that certain states in the US have made THE ACT a FELONY, not merely promoting it in public.

T^T

Nope, they did, those laws were invalidated by the supreme court..the US has laws, unlike Russia, which is run by thugs.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/6/2013 9:19:59 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Note that certain states in the US have made THE ACT a FELONY, not merely promoting it in public.

T^T

The prime state that had it, which was the defendant in Lawrence that threw those laws out, was Texas which resembles Texas in many ways. It is run by authoritarian goons, the people are gun carrying nuts, and the wealth of the state is made in oil and gas......hmm, not all that much difference, Putin and the Texas GOP would have a lot in common, Putin likes to hunt, likes guns, and likes beating up anyone he disagrees with..yep, Texas to a T

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/6/2013 9:26:10 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

They did, once upon a time, like many places (such as the USSR). Lawrence v Texas ended that, years ago.


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/cuccinelli-wants-rehearing-virginias-anti-sodomy-law

Also :

http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2013/07/east_baton_rouge_sheriffs_offi_11.html

When they have the keys to the jail doors and guns, a piece of paper means very little.

Note that in one case, the attorney general who is running (supposedly) for governor doesn't care about any supreme court ruling. In case anyone doesn't know what a state attorney general is, he is an attack dog who works for the governor.

T^T

He may not care, but it doesn't matter, if they try passing and enforcing laws like that, they will be struck down by the first court it reaches, Scotus decisions are binding. Several states in the great hookworm belt tried enforcing anti interracial marriage bans in the post Loving era, and they found out what happens when you flaunt Supreme Court decisions. Once something has been decided by Scotus, states cannot choose to ignore it, Scotus decisions bind the whole country, and no state can pass laws that violate it. Lawrence was clear that the state could not regulate sexuality in the bedroom, and that is it. Sure, you'll have some idiots in hee haw land pandering to the morons and rednecks, but the US has something called freedom fo speech, they can talk all they want, difference is, unlike Russia, they have zero chance of passing such a law.

Russia is a weird place, they whined for years about the oppression of the USSR, but then they replaced it by something just as brutal, and love it..go figure. Actually, it isn't hard to figure Russia out, the only people left there are either a)the thugs and oligarchs who control the country, and are filthy rich or b)a bunch of dumb boobs, kind of like we have living in the hinterlands here. In the US, the best and brightest leave 'real america' and move to the coasts and such, in Russia, all the best and brightest have left, for much of its existence Russia's intelligentsia were its Jews, and they have all left, and what are you left with? Pesante, to use the Italian word, and thugs.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 12:47:14 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Pesante, to use the Italian word, and thugs.


"pesante" means heavy, if you meant peasants it's "bifolchi"

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 1:34:45 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

Russia's intelligentsia were its Jews,


Educated WHERE ?

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 1:50:14 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe withoutny quotes now, we can get somewhere.

Russia has a gangster government. People like that, at least I did when they were real people here. See there were different gangsters in the US. There was a really bad kind who would kill you for nothing. Their attitude was really fucked up, and then there were the other ones, really just businessmen, but their product happened to be illegal.

The nasty ones, rather than getting busted, went into government. I know this type of people and have been around WAAAAAY too much. The idea of crime for people with BRANS is to make enough money to go legit. The guy who got busted for 200 pounds of weed went into the limo business, another into real estate. Shit like that. Unnastan ?

The really nasty ones went into the governemt. That is what happened in the USSR. Now the cool gangsters are in the government in Russia, and they do all they can to keep the nasty motherfuckers the fuck out. Putin is like a more modern Trafficant. If you REALLY know about Trafficant then you know he was a good guy. Not perfect but a hundred times better than the rest.

In a way, all governments arre gangsters, think about it. If they rule by force, what are they ?

You wanna talka somemore, I dunno. If I didn't say enough at this point I probably said too much.

T^T

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 5:52:01 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		There is a certain appeal about the resonance between gangster govt and politician govt. Sometimes it is difficult to tell one from the other. Russian is indeed run by gangsters but how is that different from some Western Govts (eg the organised crime entity aka the Israeli Govt)? Or any number of non-Western dictatorships who are 'best friends' with the West? But I don't see many citizens of the West applying for political refugee status in Russia. Nor do I see many Westerners emigrating there - Snowden is a notable exception who's there for overtly political reasons - the exception proving the rule. It's not something I would ever see myself contemplating. I'd imagine most reading these words would feel the same.

The antics of those in power in Russia are tolerated in part because the Russian people have no experience of democratic government. They exchanged an authoritarian ruthless Tsar for equally authoritarian and ruthless Lenin and Stalin. The Communist Party fell from power not through a popular democratic revolution but mainly through internal disintegration and economic stagnation. The old elite re-branded themselves and retained the reins of power through another authoritarian and ruthless ex-KGB cabal. The more things change, the more they stay the same .......

One method Russian rulers used to maintain their grip on power was pogroms - 'pogrom' was originally a Russian word.* It involves demonising a minority usually Jewish, and the organising violent attacks on that minority. We in the West used to do this too, to Jews or blacks depending on the location. Nowadays we use more devious methods to deny minorities access to power - social and economic marginalisation is a current favourite. A bit more 'civilised', fewer corpses but the end result is still the same - those in power stay in power. And there are still plenty of corpses resulting from hate crimes against sexual minorities littering the West and polluting its conscience.

It's no longer possible to organise pogroms against Jews or other ethnic minorities so the Russians choose to demonise queers instead. It's not acceptable in today's world - whether it occurs in Russia or Uganda or anywhere else. No one anywhere ought to live in terror and dread because of their queer sexuality. No responsible person should be glossing over or excusing Russian pogroms against queers - that just authorises more of the same for Russian's beleaguered sexual minorities. Is that what you really want?



* early 20th century: from Russian, literally 'devastation', from gromit 'destroy by the use of violence'
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pogrom?q=pogrom

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 12:32:32 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I disagree. Those I have met have no need to demonise anyone indiscriminately. Why they don't like homosexuality is their own business, but bear in mind that they are not very far behind the supposedly "enlightened" west. Figure about a decade and a hallf.

Also note that the fagbashers in the US didn't just stop. The Gays just got tough. They worked out and learned some martial arts and are no longer an easy target. Attitude and legislation had practically nothing to do with it.

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 5:10:33 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

for much of its existence Russia's intelligentsia were its Jews,


Whatever gave you this idea. It is far from true, even amongst the Bolsheviks, let alone before then.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 7:36:08 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe she meant the USSR.

T^T

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 7:57:58 PM   
WebWanderer


Posts: 255
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From: Fort Worth, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
for much of its existence Russia's intelligentsia were its Jews

Citation needed.

First of all, "for much of its existence" since the year 988 Russia was under the yoke of the feudal rule, followed by a few centuries of Mongols, followed by a period of turmoil that finally stabilized when the Romanovs came to power in the early 17th century. So that's 600+ years of no intelligentsia whatsoever.

Afterwards, it took Russia another century to transform from a crappy dirt-poor country to a crappy dirt-poor country with a few tourist destinations. (See Peter the Great.) The so-called "intelligentsia" in any recognizable shape or form didn't appear until ~mid-18th century, and even that would be a stretch. For the most part, they consisted of spoiled nobles who were ethnically Russian and barely even spoke their own language, preferring French instead.

The rise in arts and literature did not really start until the 19th century, and virtually all of those writers and artists were ethnically Russian, and not at all Jewish. Hell, the country's greatest poet, Alexander Pushkin, was part-African! (I forget if it was 1/4 or 1/8.) By and large, they were ethnic Russians who decried the tsarist system as well as the continuing feudal practices where Russian nobles would enslave their own compatriots. (Also primarily non-Jewish.)

Please feel free to cite your sources and name, oh, at least 100 members of Russian intelligentsia who were Jewish. After all, as you put it, "for much of its existence Russia's intelligentsia were its Jews." Not mostly Jews, not plurality of Jews, but just Jews. No, really, take your time. I can wait.

(Hint: Pushkin, Lermontov, Chekhov, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky and all the other big names? Also not Jewish.)

P.S.: Yeah, yeah, I know this is one hell of an overreaction. I just can't stand it when people talk out of their ass about something they know nothing about. I would be equally pissed off if somebody tried to claim that the Holocaust never happened or the Founding Fathers were God-fearing zealots.

< Message edited by WebWanderer -- 8/7/2013 7:59:09 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tour... - 8/7/2013 10:18:54 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
You must remember the world attitude towards gays is closer to Russia's view then yours...still. The world has a L O N G way to go before homosexuals are accepted as normal and equal.

Butch


The countries that have a lot of citizens with a lot of disposable income tend to feel the same way we do. And I think even the ones that are ambivalent about gay rights would take objection to Russia locking up their star athletes and rich tourists.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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