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4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 12:36:45 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says

Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 2:38:27 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says

Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.



Snicker. Oh sure, you won't accept APRI science - but THIS science is wonderful. Snicker.

Well I'll play along.. "what could be accomplished if it was a national priority...."

Not much. According to your study -22% of the emissions reductions was accomplished by mild weather. Lets go legislate that immediately. Mild weather for everyone!

Now, according to your study - 25% of the reduction was switching to natural gas. But I'm guessing you don't like that...

Now about 25% was caused by driving. How they know that is beyond me, but - their math looks suspect. 7% was accomplished because we have less money, we're driving less. I know thats true - but do we really want to make that a national policy?

Now how they say that they have an 18% decrease in automobile emissions year-over-year is beyond me. Government figures (http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2013/0406/Average-fuel-economy-of-US-cars-reaches-an-all-time-high) say that we have a 17% increase in fuel economy since 2007 - or roughly 3% per year. And this is only in the mileage of new cars - since we sell roughly 15 mil cars a year and we have 250 million cars on the road - its hard to imagine this making any kind of impact whatsoever, in one year.

Additionally, I will note that people are choosing smaller cars for a number of reasons including the fact they are cheaper, and they can't afford larger cars. I'm sure you'll argue its a good thing. But no additional government policies are necessary for this. If oil prices stay elevated consumers will migrate without government prodding.

The study puts the remainder at energy efficiency increases in appliances etc. Probably there is some truth to that - but not 25%. The energy star program has been going on for a long long time. People are conserving electricity just like they are driving less - because they have less money. So they switch off lights, turn the thermostats down.

I also think that the authors have overlooked a huge renaissance that is occuring in natural gas ranges, dryers and water heaters. Additionally, tankless water heaters (again, usually powered by natural gas) have been having a huge impact. And cine water headers are traditionally 25% or more of a households use - cutting it to 15 or 10% can make a huge difference.

Please note that even your study did not find a significant impact of coal or wind power.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 3:16:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says

Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.



Snicker. Oh sure, you won't accept APRI science - but THIS science is wonderful. Snicker.

I've never heard of APRI and a quick google turns up nothing so I really have no idea what you are talking about.

As to the rest, handwaves are not convincing. We had a 4% reduction and about half was due to various conservation measures and that is an unmitigated good thing.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 3:23:17 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Now, according to your study - 25% of the reduction was switching to natural gas. But I'm guessing you don't like that...


Well, considering the title of the article states that natural gas played no role then attributes 25% to it...

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 9:02:55 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says
Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.


That's great news! Now, how much did the temperatures drop?

How much have our emissions dropped in the last 5 years? What has happened globally to emissions?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 11:34:12 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says
Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.


That's great news! Now, how much did the temperatures drop?

How much have our emissions dropped in the last 5 years? What has happened globally to emissions?


You do understand that a 4% reduction, even it was worldwide, would not result in a net decrease in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere right? Until we get emissions down to the point where the CO2 concentration stops increasing we can expect continued warming.

4% is a beginning not an end.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 7/31/2013 11:54:17 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Stop driving your fucked up, beat up cars and I'm sure it will be 4.9% next year.

It's a hint to buy more german cars, it will probably save lives too.

American cars steer like shit. They look good though.
Mustangs Barracudas and all that good old musclecars.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/31/2013 11:58:36 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 5:45:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says
Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.

That's great news! Now, how much did the temperatures drop?
How much have our emissions dropped in the last 5 years? What has happened globally to emissions?

You do understand that a 4% reduction, even it was worldwide, would not result in a net decrease in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere right? Until we get emissions down to the point where the CO2 concentration stops increasing we can expect continued warming.
4% is a beginning not an end.


And, where do emissions have to get to to get to that net CO2 reduction, Ken? You do realize, don't you, that we aren't the largest CO2 emitter, right? That our emissions have been dropping, right? Your 4% "start" isn't a start. According to the HuffPo, 2012 levels (4% drop from 2011 in your article) are the lowest in 20 years.

According to the EIA, the largest drop in emissions came from coal.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 7:07:15 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says
Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.

That's great news! Now, how much did the temperatures drop?
How much have our emissions dropped in the last 5 years? What has happened globally to emissions?

You do understand that a 4% reduction, even it was worldwide, would not result in a net decrease in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere right? Until we get emissions down to the point where the CO2 concentration stops increasing we can expect continued warming.
4% is a beginning not an end.


And, where do emissions have to get to to get to that net CO2 reduction, Ken? You do realize, don't you, that we aren't the largest CO2 emitter, right? That our emissions have been dropping, right? Your 4% "start" isn't a start. According to the HuffPo, 2012 levels (4% drop from 2011 in your article) are the lowest in 20 years.

According to the EIA, the largest drop in emissions came from coal.


We don't know how low we have to get to reach equilibrium but we'll know when we get there.

And of course the biggest drop in emissions came from us burning less coal. Coal is a far bigger source of carbon than either petroleum or NG.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 9:56:25 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Equalibrium by definition would be not to burn anything at all and the only CO2 emissions come from volcanos and shit like that. It is by definition unattainable, but of course what that really means is that they will redefine it.

And Grannies do freeze and the economy is grinding to a halt, but admittedly that is not an effect of lower CO2, just a cause.

You know these environmentalists blathered about being vegetarian because of the carbon footprint of cattle at one time. Remeber ? Well what about the carbon footprint of humans ? So I propose that perhaps two billion humans stop breathing and shitting. That will go alot farther in achieving this holy grail of equalibrium.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 8/1/2013 9:57:49 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 10:13:03 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		121 years of Failed Climate and Environmental Predictions

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 10:32:51 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says
Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.


That's great news! Now, how much did the temperatures drop?

How much have our emissions dropped in the last 5 years? What has happened globally to emissions?


You do understand that a 4% reduction, even it was worldwide, would not result in a net decrease in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere right? Until we get emissions down to the point where the CO2 concentration stops increasing we can expect continued warming.

4% is a beginning not an end.


Except, of course, that we can't. Temperature has been flat for the last 16 years. Even Michael 'Hockey Stick' Mann concedes that.

And, over the same time period (since 1996) carbon dioxide emissions have *doubled*.

This is the thing that you alarmists don't get - co2 does not lead temperatures - it trails them. Increased radiation warms the oceans. Warmer oceans release CO2, by Henry's law.

This is why the fact that there is correlation between CO2 and temperature it does not prove causality.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 11:10:05 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"This is why the fact that there is correlation between CO2 and temperature it does not prove causality."

When did that ever matter ? Oh yeah, that's right. Back in the 1950s or sometime when they actualy invented shit and solved some problems.

T^T

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 1:46:02 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I missed the grannies freezing to death and all of American industry grinding to a halt.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130730/efficiency-drove-us-emissions-decline-not-natural-gas-study-says
Just think of what could be accomplished if it was a national priority.


That's great news! Now, how much did the temperatures drop?

How much have our emissions dropped in the last 5 years? What has happened globally to emissions?


You do understand that a 4% reduction, even it was worldwide, would not result in a net decrease in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere right? Until we get emissions down to the point where the CO2 concentration stops increasing we can expect continued warming.

4% is a beginning not an end.


Except, of course, that we can't. Temperature has been flat for the last 16 years. Even Michael 'Hockey Stick' Mann concedes that.

And, over the same time period (since 1996) carbon dioxide emissions have *doubled*.

This is the thing that you alarmists don't get - co2 does not lead temperatures - it trails them. Increased radiation warms the oceans. Warmer oceans release CO2, by Henry's law.

This is why the fact that there is correlation between CO2 and temperature it does not prove causality.

Bullshit. Every year since 1997 has been hotter than 1997
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_temperature_record#Warmest_years

CO2 is a photon trap. The more if it there is in the atmosphere the more heat will be retained by the atmosphere, all other factors unchanged. That is simple physics. To claim otherwise is to deny all of physics and chemistry.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 3:42:15 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Stop driving your fucked up, beat up cars and I'm sure it will be 4.9% next year.

It's a hint to buy more german cars, it will probably save lives too.


German cars are sorta okay, I guess, but don't expect me to be impressed until Mercedes-Benz builds one of these...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 8/1/2013 3:50:25 PM >

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 5:25:51 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Stop driving your fucked up, beat up cars and I'm sure it will be 4.9% next year.

It's a hint to buy more german cars, it will probably save lives too.

American cars steer like shit. They look good though.
Mustangs Barracudas and all that good old musclecars.


Who "couldn't" build a great car if they were getting $80-$150k for them?
Why pay $80k for a Mercedes or BMW when you can get a Ford Taurus for $35 k? Just because the BMW or Mercedes is...faster?
Where can you drive at 140 mph without losing your lisence for a very long time and probably going to jail for months?

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(in reply to MrBukani)
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RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/1/2013 7:22:59 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Where can you drive at 140 mph without losing your lisence for a very long time and probably going to jail for months?

Bonneville. But I suppose they don't have anything like that in the Netherlands.



< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 8/1/2013 7:23:35 PM >

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/2/2013 9:59:43 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Stop driving your fucked up, beat up cars and I'm sure it will be 4.9% next year.

It's a hint to buy more german cars, it will probably save lives too.

American cars steer like shit. They look good though.
Mustangs Barracudas and all that good old musclecars.

I prefer the Z06 but it is a big C02 pump. I am not so sure about man's contribution yet although it is one would think...on the increase, not a decrease. So in any case, this is good news.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/2/2013 10:02:44 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Stop driving your fucked up, beat up cars and I'm sure it will be 4.9% next year.

It's a hint to buy more german cars, it will probably save lives too.


German cars are sorta okay, I guess, but don't expect me to be impressed until Mercedes-Benz builds one of these...




Nice piece.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: 4% drop in CO2 emissions in one year - 8/2/2013 10:09:41 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux







Link to submarine Skate at North Pole, 1958-59.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 8/2/2013 10:11:45 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 20
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