RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..."

RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 5:36:22 AM)
FR I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them?

thishereboi -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 5:37:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: WebWanderer radical pro-lifers... Granting that "radical pro-lifers" take some extreme positions, 20 weeks is not one of them. Austria: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Belgium: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Bulgaria: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Czech Republic: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Denmark: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter France: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Germany: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Greece: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Hungary: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Italy: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Latvia: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Lithuania: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Luxembourg: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Netherlands: 13 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Poland: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Portugal: 16 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Romania: 14 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Slovakia: 12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Slovenia: 10 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Sweden: 18 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter Source K. Yea, but seriously, how much fun would it be to start a thread bashing those countries. Better to stick with what they know.

pahunkboy -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 5:42:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: WebWanderer quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or How many crack babies have you adopted ? That's a damn good line. I think I just might use it to silence (or at least thoroughly confuse) radical pro-lifers in the future... Why stop with the prolifers? If something makes sense, it should be used across the board. If you have a problem with spousal abuse, make sure you are willing to take that abused wife in and support her or don't suggest she leave her husband. If you see parents abusing their kids, keep you mouth shut unless you are willing to adopt them. Unless you are willing to be part of the solution keep your thoughts to yourself. Yea that makes sense [8\|] The next argument will be- isnt it better to feel the pain of death for 20 minutes- rather then a lifetime- 72 years of it.

DomKen -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 6:29:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them? Because the forced birther leaders have bad intentions and have demonstrated their mendacity for decades. And no scientist is really in disagreement on the issue, see Kirata's post from the forced birthers that actually confirms the fact that a fetus cannot experience pain before about the 26th week.

DesideriScuri -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 7:22:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN. These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted. In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so. The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb. Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate.

DesideriScuri -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 7:26:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them? Because some would rather be aggressive in their disagreements and divert attention from the actual debate. If you accuse those who disagree of lying, then the lying becomes the topic, not the salient facts of the disagreement. It also puts those who disagree on the defensive.

farglebargle -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 8:48:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them? If you had reviewed the link provided, you would have known that there is NO SCIENTIFIC QUESTION here. SCIENTISTS do not differ. It is only the non-scientist who are making any other assertions.

farglebargle -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 8:50:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN. These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted. In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so. The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb. Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate. You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can. Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex. I await your respons.

DesideriScuri -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 8:58:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN. These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted. In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so. The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb. Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate. You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can. Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex. I await your respons. Yawn What a lame argument. Do you not see the inherent flaw in your argument? Basing the ability to feel pain on the presence of he cerebral cortex (and having the connections to it) is wrong. Flat out. K's links show that.

tazzygirl -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:12:45 AM)
quote: What a lame argument. Do you not see the inherent flaw in your argument? Basing the ability to feel pain on the presence of he cerebral cortex (and having the connections to it) is wrong. Flat out. K's links show that. And my information disagrees with K's.

JeffBC -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:22:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's the beauty of science. Shit is true whether you believe it or not. But this thread has nothing to do with science so I don't see how that is relevant. NO scientist EVER would say "End of discussion". That's not how science works. It's NEVER the end of the discussion. I'm pro-abortion (I hate facile turns of speech). But exactly because I DO care about science you won't find me arguing that this discussion is over.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:26:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can. Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex. I await your respons. Ah... right!! So I smash your head in with a 1000lb wrecking ball. I noted that your body didn't seem to register any pain. So I conclude that you need your head to register pain. Got it!! [:D] So in my next experiment, I push someone under a Greyhound bus while it is travelling at 50mph. I notice that the body didn't seem to register any pain despite the head still being attached to it. Conclusion: Your head is irrelevant to register pain - I've seen the proof first hand. Got it!! [:D] Confused??? Yeah, so would thousands of others be too. You don't actually need to get hit by a fucking bus to know it fucking HURTS!! More recent study has proven that other organs play a major part in registering pain - not just the brain. Ergo, you don't actually NEED to physically test a fetus to see that it registers pain. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

tazzygirl -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:29:49 AM)
A question for you all.... how do you determine the difference, in another, between pain and pleasure?

pahunkboy -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:35:33 AM)
Tazz, I thought medical professions take an oath to do no harm? This thread is cheerleading for killing babies- because they wont feel the pain.

tazzygirl -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:36:28 AM)
No, its not. Someone specifically may be, but the medical community isnt "cheerleading" for anything here.

pahunkboy -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:45:00 AM)
The "science" is an attempt to feel good over the abortion process. Most science these days is for the benefit of corporate profits.

Hillwilliam -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:45:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can. Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex. I await your respons. Ah... right!! So I smash your head in with a 1000lb wrecking ball. I noted that your body didn't seem to register any pain. So I conclude that you need your head to register pain. Got it!! [:D] So in my next experiment, I push someone under a Greyhound bus while it is travelling at 50mph. I notice that the body didn't seem to register any pain despite the head still being attached to it. Conclusion: Your head is irrelevant to register pain - I've seen the proof first hand. Got it!! [:D] Confused??? Yeah, so would thousands of others be too. You don't actually need to get hit by a fucking bus to know it fucking HURTS!! More recent study has proven that other organs play a major part in registering pain - not just the brain. Ergo, you don't actually NEED to physically test a fetus to see that it registers pain. Your argument is fundamentally flawed. Yes but you actually need the necessary neural anatomy to feel pain and this anatomy is not present at 20 weeks gestation. Saying a 20 week fetus feels pain makes as much sense as saying that a man with no arms feels pain when you smash his fingers with a hammer. He has no fucking fingers.

farglebargle -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:46:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN. These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted. In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so. The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb. Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate. You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can. Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex. I await your respons. Yawn What a lame argument. Do you not see the inherent flaw in your argument? Basing the ability to feel pain on the presence of he cerebral cortex (and having the connections to it) is wrong. Flat out. K's links show that. Don't you understand that I'm not talking about extrapolating. I'm talking about DIRECT EXPERIMENTS. Where you expose a fetus to stimuli and you determine SCIENTIFICALLY if they have in face EXPERIENCED PAIN rather than display a reflex. So, I continue to await your enumeration of these direct studies.

Hillwilliam -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:46:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy The "science" is an attempt to feel good over the abortion process. Most science these days is for the benefit of corporate profits. Maybe you should move out in the woods with no electricity, shelter, tools or clothing if you hate science so much

tazzygirl -> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." (8/8/2013 9:56:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy The "science" is an attempt to feel good over the abortion process. Most science these days is for the benefit of corporate profits. Science is only good if you agree with it?

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