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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Would you really argue that something that is our descendant is not human?

I am arguing that a piece of a human is not a human.

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Thats not what I asked. You made the argument that the wild is not a petri dish.... and his basis, according to you, is that those organisms live in a petri dish.... are they human or not?

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Not always. If you bothered reading any of the links I presented you would know they are very hardy and have caused problems by contaminating other cultures. It is safe to assume that there are many colonies thriving outside of labs, the cells having gotten out by way of sink drains and medical waste disposal in landfills.

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Pro choice folk say the same thing.

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A fertilized eggs is a human being?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Not always. If you bothered reading any of the links I presented you would know they are very hardy and have caused problems by contaminating other cultures. It is safe to assume that there are many colonies thriving outside of labs, the cells having gotten out by way of sink drains and medical waste disposal in landfills.

I didn't see anything about them living in a landfill, just that they have been showing up in labs around the world. I also read that some scientists (but only a few) think they should be classified as a separate species... so that would answer that question.

Of course something decended from humans can be non-human. In fact, unless we are suddenly, catastrophically wiped out... it is inevitable! With every generation, humans continue to evolve. As with all evolution, the changes will be slow but eventually we will have decedents so different from us that we (or more likely, they) will draw an (arbitrary) line and say, "new species."

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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A fertilized eggs is a human being?

And now we come back around to the beginning.

As I see it, yes.

I am, of course (before anyone jumps in with more ridiculous nitpicking) talking about a human egg cell fertilized with a human sperm cell. It is not another species... so what the hell else could it be?

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Definitely but HeLa is still genetically very similar to us. About the only difference is extra copies of some chromosomes.

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As to landfills etc., do you really think no culture dish or flask ever went into a landfill with a colony still alive?

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So you dont see the need for a blood supply, the ability to take a breath, the ability to think, the need to grow, as being a requirement to be "human"?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b
I never said that. Some single celled life can survive on its own, some can't. I don't know where Hela fall into that but, being derived from a human, I suspect that they would be able to survive long with out human intervention... just like the cells in an amputated thumb would be able to survive long.

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Then you really don't grasp the issue at all. HeLa cells survived standard sterilization techniques in use in the 60's and 70's. That's how they contaminated other cell lines. I've personally added bleach right from the bottle to a colony and some of the cells survived.

You seem to think they are simply living on growth media in a dish. They survive most any cleaning of lab equipment except sterilization in an autoclave and they apparently even sometimes survive that.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

And those who promote the disproven hypothesis, liars.

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the neural structures necessary to feel pain have not yet developed, any observable responses to stimuli at this gestational stage — like the fetal “flinching” during an amniocentesis — are reflexive, not experiential.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/singleton/

N.B.: If you don't want to be publicly called a liar, do not lie publicly. Take this as constructive notice.

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Funny. most of those are the requirements for a live birth.

However, I do have to disagree with you. Just because an egg and a sperm combined isnt enough to call it "living" or a "human".

There are many things that can go wrong, even after the point of fertilization and before implantation. To call a mass of cells in a petri dish a human is quite a far stretch. It has the potential, yes. But, its not there yet.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Then you really don't grasp the issue at all. HeLa cells survived standard sterilization techniques in use in the 60's and 70's. That's how they contaminated other cell lines. I've personally added bleach right from the bottle to a colony and some of the cells survived.

You seem to think they are simply living on growth media in a dish. They survive most any cleaning of lab equipment except sterilization in an autoclave and they apparently even sometimes survive that.

Okay, so they're hardy little buggers... We've strayed so far from the issue I don't see where this is heading.

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What he is saying is this.
Those cell cultures have all the DNA to make a human.
You have claimed that that is what makes a human (DNA) as part of your anti choice stance.
They are hardy enough to live independently for significant periods of time. (A fetus will die within minutes).

It seems that, this culture is closer to human than an early term fetus.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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What he is saying is this.
Those cell cultures have all the DNA to make a human.
You have claimed that that is what makes a human (DNA) as part of your anti choice stance.
They are hardy enough to live independently for significant periods of time. (A fetus will die within minutes).

It seems that, this culture is closer to human than an early term fetus.

Really? This culture is growing arms and legs and a head like most human fetuses would?

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However, I do have to disagree with you. Just because an egg and a sperm combined isnt enough to call it "living" or a "human".

There are many things that can go wrong, even after the point of fertilization and before implantation. To call a mass of cells in a petri dish a human is quite a far stretch. It has the potential, yes. But, its not there yet.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Funny. most of those are the requirements for a live birth.

However, I do have to disagree with you. Just because an egg and a sperm combined isnt enough to call it "living" or a "human".

There are many things that can go wrong, even after the point of fertilization and before implantation. To call a mass of cells in a petri dish a human is quite a far stretch. It has the potential, yes. But, its not there yet.

Like I said, any place where you draw the line is arbitrary. I just think the moment of fertilization is the most logical because creating a human being by meeting up is why those sperm cells a swimming toward the egg in the first place.