RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (Full Version)

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pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 9:25:58 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
I really see that more as a sort of vintage style relationship than BDSM. Or I don't get what you mean.

Again, you're confusing BDSM and D/s. They are not the same thing.

So, yes....a 1950's relationship is a D/s power dynamic.


Sorry, but I am not confusing it and have not confused it. BDSM is a collective term for an array of practices, and in this case it was the previous poster implying through my post that he refers to BDSM in general and power-play specifically.

EDIT: Replies are pretty fast here, I edited the quote in after answering yet another post I didn't see before.



pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 9:28:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I agree with you that we are not "BDSM". But still, you asked what someone got out of things like pure "power-play" and so I tried to answer.

Ah ok. I pretty much understand old-fashioned relationships as one of the few things.



JeffBC -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 9:28:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
Sorry, but I am not confusing it and have not confused it. BDSM is a collective term for an array of practices, and in this case it was the previous poster implying through my post that he refers to BDSM in general and power-play specifically.

agreed, it was me who introduced the non-kink relationship and you called me on it.



LadyPact -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 9:41:24 AM)

OP, message boards are not similar to novels. The idea is to make your point and/or ask your questions in such a way that discussion ensues. MyOtherSelf has been a real trooper here that she's been willing to wade through all of the unnecessary tag along that you've got in your original. Compare it to real life conversation. If you spoke non-stop for fifteen minutes straight at a social function, many people would wander elsewhere because it's a conversation, not a speech.

Some things I did get out of it.........

You do obviously lack an adequate amount of real life experience to draw some of the conclusions that you are doing here. Lacking empathy isn't exactly a good characteristic for a top (sadist). The deal is that you need that quality so that you don't inflict more pain than a person can handle. I'm not a fluffy sadist by any means, but what you described by your electric shock session probably would have given Me pause, too. As you said, the idea isn't to damage someone. That's the difference between being an ethical sadist and s sociopath.

As to your bottom (masochist) side, it sounds flippant, but I'm tempted to say that you haven't found the right sadist. I don't mean any offense to you or to anyone reading the thread, but I had a few chuckles over some of the suggestions and assumptions of how S/m works for everybody. (You'll have to forgive Me for that. It's early in My time zone and My lack of caffeine doesn't make Me nearly as refined.) Part of what I think you need to understand is that sadism and masochism aren't the same for everybody and it exists on something more like a scale. The idea is to find somebody who's tastes as far as the level of pain inflicted/received are similar to your own. For example, the type of sadism that your original seems to imply as what you believe is the status quo wouldn't work for Me.

One reason that you may be reading more of the types of expressions that you describe is because, frankly, heavier sadism and masochism don't always go over well here. It's still a public audience and not everyone is comfortable with everything. I've started more than a few posts over the years with a disclaimer on the top warning folks that it may not exactly be what they want to read. Very much for the same reason that I don't conduct certain scenes in public dungeons. If I know it's going to be something that is going to make the majority of other patrons uncomfortable, I'll probably just do that at home.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 9:42:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
Ah ok. I pretty much understand old-fashioned relationships as one of the few things.

It's one of many things that Oside was trying to tell you.

D/s is a power dynamic; BDSM is a whole plethera of "alternative" activities.
Whilst many will overlap each other, any sort of D/s or M/s power dynamic doesn't necessarilly imply or include anything from BDSM or vice-versa.
They are indeed completely separate entities.




pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 10:08:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
For example, the type of sadism that your original seems to imply as what you believe is the status quo wouldn't work for Me.

I pretty much more or less understood everything you wrote except this sentence. Can you rephrase it?

The idea isn't damage I agree, but contrary to that I do find it appealing to make a person a little disturbed, because I also want that. Whatever that means, if you feel guilty of masturbating or being horny or can't look up to your Dom because of fear. I mean little things, that don't have any real real-life impact. I don't know to what extend that is accepted or appreciated generally. It is no secret that corporal punishment changes behavior though, and that can be directed towards the good or maybe just towards kinky stuff.



LadyPact -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 10:23:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
For example, the type of sadism that your original seems to imply as what you believe is the status quo wouldn't work for Me.

I pretty much more or less understood everything you wrote except this sentence. Can you rephrase it?

The idea isn't damage I agree, but contrary to that I do find it appealing to make a person a little disturbed, because I also want that. Whatever that means, if you feel guilty of masturbating or being horny or can't look up to your Dom because of fear. I mean little things, that don't have any real real-life impact. I don't know to what extend that is accepted or appreciated generally. It is no secret that corporal punishment changes behavior though, and that can be directed towards the good or maybe just towards kinky stuff.

Here's what you said in the last paragraph of your original:

quote:

What I mean is, what does it do to not cut to the chase, to pretend you are doing it but not really doing it, to say one thing then do another, to (metaphorically speaking) have all the getups and symbols and items hung up and ready for the party, dress for the party, then leave the room empty and go to bed without celebrating. What kind of understanding of sadomasochism doesn't involve real pain and real torture? What kind of domination can possibly exist without real points of control and what kind of submission without giving them?

Believe it or not, some of us enjoy administering pain a lot more than you seem to think we do. It's not a pretend thing.




DesFIP -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 11:00:23 AM)

You want this inside of a relationship where the people dislike each other but still have sex and s & m.

The problem is that most people want s & m or bondage or whatever inside of a relationship where they love each other.
So what do you have to offer someone that she will be willing to torture you the way you want to be done, when you can't offer love and won't be getting sex because there is no mutual love?

In order to get what you want, you need to offer the other person something they want. You don't offer love or friendship, you offer dislike and cold sex. Can you offer service? Or money?

Because we all trade things of value in relationships. What do you have to trade that other people will want? Taking into account that for every female tops, there are a couple of dozen male bottoms a day seeking her time.

And nobody here thinks ASD means you're crazy. We all have issues we need to work around whether physical, mental or emotional if not all three. However not telling a partner about this is lying. It's like saying you're fine with electrical play above the waist when you have a pacemaker. It's not fair to make someone else cause you unintended problems that they would not have done, and thus bear guilt for, because you lied.



pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 11:50:58 AM)

quote:

You want this inside of a relationship where the people dislike each other but still have sex and s & m.
I guess you somehow inferred that from the previous argument about sex in marriage without liking each other? Anyway, I was arguing for the contrary in a different context originally, your statement is incorrect. Although in an unrelated manner I don't want 'real love' in relationships, I personally see D/s combined with S&M in a relationship more as some kind of alternative and better form of mutuality and affection that stems from real dedication and actions rather than just having your brain dictate your neurochemistry and alter your perception at some point. I don't see how actual love can be genuine. Realistically speaking, its a trick of nature to get us to produce more children more effectively.

quote:

In order to get what you want, you need to offer the other person something they want. You don't offer love or friendship, you offer dislike and cold sex. Can you offer service? Or money?

Because we all trade things of value in relationships. What do you have to trade that other people will want? Taking into account that for every female tops, there are a couple of dozen male bottoms a day seeking her time.
Wrong assumption. The rest you are saying is basically that there is such an high demand that it increases the value of the supply disproportionally. So in response, you have to essentially pay more than its worth, i.e. more than you usually offer in a normal relationship. But that is the logic of the economics in a capitalistic free market and not exactly the logic of human relationships. Though it is true to some extend nonetheless. If you take it to mere economics, it should be true ideally that both offer something of equal value in relationships and that both get out net zero. But most often men are pumping in the money or the effort and not getting it back. Both get the sex, so its really strange to argue that women balance the money out with sex, even if men are naturally inclined to want more of it. I am just saying that quite the contrary of what you are hinting to should be true. You shouldn't be forced to trade for unfair bargains, just because you have a human need that requires you to trade at possibly all cost.

quote:

And nobody here thinks ASD means you're crazy. We all have issues we need to work around whether physical, mental or emotional if not all three. However not telling a partner about this is lying. It's like saying you're fine with electrical play above the waist when you have a pacemaker. It's not fair to make someone else cause you unintended problems that they would not have done, and thus bear guilt for, because you lied.
I did not lie and I don't intend to for that matter. In fact I can only lie in specific context towards governmental bodies, for example when paying taxes, possibly to children who lack a certain degree of awareness to understand the truth properly, but I have not been in that situation yet. She knew about my ASD diagnosis and if you are referring to the shock intensity, I didn't exactly elaborate on it but I mentioned it. Its just somewhat ambiguous what 'oh, remember, that thing is really painful and I have not tested the higher settings' and later .. 'please punish me more Mistress, more please, I want it so bad' means, especially if you got two unexperienced people and one is craving to be hurt really really really badly. Its just in retrospect that I realize more what was going on, that my desire did override the considerations. But it was all about myself suffering and I always knew that I was fine with anything that could possibly happen if I didn't develop some kind of psychological symptoms that influenced other areas of life. It was just very sane self-responsibility. So I just let it go and it was all fine. My point of concern is just her possible lack of sadism, that given different circumstances, she would have only done it softly, that all women would only do it softly. If I am the slave and only tortured softly despite begging, I don't really feel I am loved, I feel unworthy and miserable. As if I am not good enough to make either of us enjoy it. Its just awful and sad somehow.
And the device is by no means the ultimate pain experience, its painful admittedly, but not as painful as you can get with other (non-permanently damaging) things or in combination possibly.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 12:02:36 PM)

You've made some very disparaging sexist remarks in your reply and also contradicted some of your earlier statements.



pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 12:09:51 PM)

quote:

You've made some very disparaging sexist remarks in your reply and also contradicted some of your earlier statements.


Citation and arguments please. I don't really get where you are pulling that up from.

I have reread my posts now and I find your statement offensive because it is ignorant and insulting.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 12:25:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

Or they are just 'recreational'. Maybe if I had less self-control and no sense of justice, I would simply be a psychopath in nowadays society, but then you could say that about probably anyone. I do by no means feel in touch with the vast majority of people.


You couldn't say that about anyone. In fact, it doesn't apply to most people at all from what I've observed.

You're describing a lack of personal connection with other people of a type that I've only found in 2 other people besides myself. If I'm correct about the way you process things, it's not your sense of justice that's keeping you on the straight and narrow, as it is a socially orientated cost/benefit analysis of where your goals lay.

If that's the case, and you can switch off empathy, it also means you can switch it on. I suggest you make it one of your primary focusses to practice controlling that switch, because it's very much a case of 'the more you use it, the easier it becomes'. I've got some very interesting new research studies on the subject laying around if you're interested, hit me up on the other side and I'll send you some links.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

To pull out something unambiguous and concrete here: If I were to say for example, that I want to be raped and beaten by a woman, that is actually exactly true, even to the extend that I would develop the mentality first to not want it, that is to genuinely not consent in the situation.



This, on the other hand, isn't at all uncommon. I know of at least half a dozen people on this board -again myself included- who do not only fantasize about scenarios that are truly non-consensual, but who actually play around with stuff that is actually non-consensual, at the very least in the moment itself.

It's not advisable to actually do this with uninformed participants, primarily because of legal issues, but if you look a bit harder, you're going to find various people of either orientation who have no problem with playing far beyond safe words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

Rape fantasies, and just keeping it a fantasy, are pretty common as many people know and I can understand that. What I find extremely alienating is when people talk about rape roleplay or acting out rape, but in the form of just smacking someone lightly in the face and calling them dirty words, then having normal sex otherwise (even more alienating is when that was already somehow perceived as traumatizing to them in hindsight).



You've been talking to the wrong people then...

Personally, for me it doesn't even count as rape play unless he gets me to the point where I'm absolutely hysterical, to the point that I momentarily forget that this is the man that I love, and that I want him to do this to me.
Anything below that is merely "rough sex" in my book.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

For example if I were told to treat you like shit, I would treat you like shit and not wrap that up in some weird gentle fashion where I actually am very considerate and kind towards you and sparsely pretend I treat you like shit. That most people will run away once they realize that you mean what you are talking about, that its not fake but genuine, that it is real and not fantasy.


The issue isn't that people run when they think you're genuine, the issue is that people enter into relationships because they want to be fulfilled, and most people don't know to communicate the exact nuance in the HOW they want to be fulfilled.

If somebody tells you that they seek a relationship in which they're treated like shit, they're saying "I have an idea in my head of what it will take to fulfill me, and the language I know to communicate that idea is 'to be treated like shit' ".
It doesn't necessarily mean they're up for anything (though in rare cases they might be) it means that they have a very specific idea in their head of what 'being treated like shit' means, and are looking for somebody to follow that script.

If you come in and make it clear that 'treating like shit' to you means that you can do whatever you want, and whatever you want doesn't line up with what they envisioned that you'd want, you're basically telling them 'what I want isn't going to fulfill you' and they'll loose interest.

You will have to start realizing that, no matter what it is that people want, and no matter how extreme that desire may be, and no matter how much they tell you they're up for anything, and no matter how much they tell you they want it to be all about you, the FIRST THING they're all looking for is self-fulfillment. It's just that the methods they think to achieve that take on different forms.

If you storm ahead thinking that you can truly not give a fuck about if they're getting something valuable to them out of the relationship, you're always going to end up being disappointed, because in the end, nobody stays long term in a relationship where they're not achieving a minimum level of personal satisfaction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

I was begging for more and more and one day she shocked me so much that it had gone past my limit, I collapsed on the floor, for emotional reasons, somehow shut off from the outside world unable to react to anything, somehow traumatized for a moment, completely involuntary, like an emotional breakdown. It felt really really deliberating and intimate in a way I can't describe.



Again, nothing unusually there. I know lots of people who play at that level, including here on the board, myself again included.

I've gone to places you're describing by means of a cattle prod, so even the means by which you're doing it isn't that unusually by itself.

Playing passed the point of safewords, and to the point of complete physical, emotional, and mental collapse is a lot of fun to do, but you really shouldn't spring it on somebody (either Top or bottom) without talking about it first, and making it clear that that's where you want to take it to.

If you don't do that with a Top, the cost/benefit analogize wouldn't add up: why would she risk taking it too far and going to jail over it, or accidentally harming you permanently when you guys haven't even talked about it, and she doesn't even know for sure that's what you want.
With a bottom, you risk going to jail yourself, if you take it that far without discussing it beforehand.

I know that you're probably feeling like talking ruins part of the fantasy, because the more you discuss it, the less 'real' it feels, but trust me, you'll get over that with practice, and, it's really the only way to go unless you're aiming to play with people who are mentally unstable to the point that the above cost/benefit analysis doesn't occur to them... not something I'd recommend you to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

But what about sane, real sadism? Controllable direct physical sadism? I rather expected that to be the main element in S/M.



It's not the main element in S/M, because like with everything, the Bell curve applies: most people fall in the middle, with only a few on either edge of the absolute extremes.

That being said, edge play of the type you're describing is neither uncommon, nor frowned upon within the BDSM culture.

The only thing you need to do to play at that level is find people with compatible interests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

Instead, what I see mostly within BDSM is power-play, symbolism, suspense, other fetishes, fantasy stories, sexual kinks like wearing a vibrator in public. It is so contrary to what I can emotionally relate to. I really question what you get out of it, if you dress up in leather getups and chain someone up, then gently beat them with one of those whips that don't really hurt a few times and then just have normal sex.



I don't now who you're been playing with, but that doesn't sound anything like anybody I know for engages in S/M play on a regular basis. What you're describing sounds like an absolute newbie couple, or a vanilla couple who wants to throw in a little kink every now and then to spice things up.

Even the people who engage in S/M who don't like extremer edge play don't play on that kind of a toned down level. After all, the goal always is to get the blood pumping, and the hormones flowing liberally.



SailingBum -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 12:48:04 PM)

I realize your a virgin on this site, so i'll be gentle. Take a look at others posts. Then you won't have half the ppl telling you that your clueless when it comes to conversing on here. Those ppl BTW are correct. Interesting topic but I didn't bother to read it.



BadOne



pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 12:54:44 PM)

@UllrsIshtar:

Wow, thank you very much. That post was really helpful and did clear a lot of things up for me.

Its not true though, that I can switch empathy on, its sadly so that the empathy I have is largely rather disturbing and effectively unrealistic, in the same sense that I just feel loved by torture and would 'emphatically' feel the same in other people, if I did put the rational realizations aside.
I believe to assume that most people would not become psychopaths, given that they had no sense of justice, i.e. no morals and no repercussions to feat is very philosophical. In the end, we are all in a society that has the laws and social rules it has and our actions as well as behavior and thought patters are shaped by them such that it eventually leads to a social cost/benefit analysis that does not go into the negative. Its not a choice we make or actively think about, but more of what we are and became because of education, culture and our environment. I believe the real danger is when people fail to realize how much of an influence that has, how much the cost/benefit is the core of their moral system. Just take German history for example, a whole nation supporting genocide because their environment pushed and allowed for it. Extreme injustice is still going on in quite some countries in the world where it is allowed for. There never is and never was a single 'evil force' manifested in a person or small group that made that possible. It is people and social dynamics.
I do actually see how I have a strong sense of justice, sort of by default, and a lot of acquired abnormal emotional self-control and I can very much see how that 'rescued' me a few times in my past decisions, especially when I was younger and not that developed in many areas, or just on too much drugs. If it weren't for the sense of justice, I would probably not have gone through the same effort and self-restriction to get that level of control in the first place. I am very concerned about unjust actions, even to the point of verbal misrepresentation or ignorance. I have read sadist accounts and I understand really how it is, but I have all the inhibition you ever need to prevent it. I have successfully gone through withdrawal and addiction, and drug addiction is probably the hardest craving you can ever overcome, only topped by more extreme drugs and longer exposures. It is 24/7 self-control. You can't do without it.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 1:08:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

quote:

You've made some very disparaging sexist remarks in your reply and also contradicted some of your earlier statements.


Citation and arguments please. I don't really get where you are pulling that up from.

I have reread my posts now and I find your statement offensive because it is ignorant and insulting.


Ok....

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
quote:

You want this inside of a relationship where the people dislike each other but still have sex and s & m.

I guess you somehow inferred that from the previous argument about sex in marriage without liking each other? Anyway, I was arguing for the contrary in a different context originally, your statement is incorrect.

You categorically stated that you thought it was normal for people to have sex just because they have a sex drive. There was no inference - you stated it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
I personally see D/s combined with S&M in a relationship more as some kind of alternative and better form of mutuality and affection that stems from real dedication and actions rather than just having your brain dictate your neurochemistry and alter your perception at some point. I don't see how actual love can be genuine. Realistically speaking, its a trick of nature to get us to produce more children more effectively.

It has already been pointed out to you that S&M and D/s dynamics are different entities.
That fact that you can't see them that way is your problem and the way you think.
Real love can also be genuine with neither S&M or D/s - so your point here is somewhat moot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
quote:

In order to get what you want, you need to offer the other person something they want. You don't offer love or friendship, you offer dislike and cold sex. Can you offer service? Or money?

Because we all trade things of value in relationships. What do you have to trade that other people will want? Taking into account that for every female tops, there are a couple of dozen male bottoms a day seeking her time.

Wrong assumption.... </snip>
You shouldn't be forced to trade for unfair bargains, just because you have a human need that requires you to trade at possibly all cost.

You answer in this section just didn't make sense with what was posed.
You have categorically stated that you don't understand what is needed on an emotional level and actually don't want it.
What was being said here was that most people (in a normal world) actually do need it and also why your comments appear to be mis-understood. What you seem to reject is that people usually trade something with something else in a relationship and you fail to grasp that point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
...Its just somewhat ambiguous what 'oh, remember, that thing is really painful and I have not tested the higher settings' and later .. 'please punish me more Mistress, more please, I want it so bad' means, especially if you got two unexperienced people and one is craving to be hurt really really really badly. Its just in retrospect that I realize more what was going on, that my desire did override the considerations. But it was all about myself suffering and I always knew that I was fine with anything that could possibly happen if I didn't develop some kind of psychological symptoms that influenced other areas of life. It was just very sane self-responsibility.

You almost answered yourself here...
"I was fine with anything that could possibly happen if I didn't develop some kind of psychological symptoms".
I guess you didn't think of death then??
Sane self-responsibility? I don't think so.
Extremely dangerous individual that needs to be locked up for his own safety.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
My point of concern is just her possible lack of sadism, that given different circumstances, she would have only done it softly, that all women would only do it softly

This bit is extremely sexist in every way you can think of.

Just because she might have 'done it' softly, you cannot make a sweeping statement that "all women would only do it softly". I doubt very much if Lady Pact would fit into that category!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
If I am the slave and only tortured softly despite begging, I don't really feel I am loved, I feel unworthy and miserable. As if I am not good enough to make either of us enjoy it. Its just awful and sad somehow.

That's your problem I'm afraid.
It is specific to you and how you see the world.



kalikshama -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 1:27:52 PM)

quote:

But most often men are pumping in the money or the effort and not getting it back.


You're dating the wrong women [:D]

More often then not, I have put in more than my share financially, but I take responsibility for in the past having chosen men who do not pull their weight.



pqui -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 2:44:14 PM)

I don't know if it makes sense to reply to you any further at all, probably not, but I am trying to clarify things compulsory. Here goes the flaming ...

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
quote:

You want this inside of a relationship where the people dislike each other but still have sex and s & m.

I guess you somehow inferred that from the previous argument about sex in marriage without liking each other? Anyway, I was arguing for the contrary in a different context originally, your statement is incorrect.

You categorically stated that you thought it was normal for people to have sex just because they have a sex drive. There was no inference - you stated it.
You don't seem to understand the logical difference between 1. acknowledging the fact that many people just have sex because of their sex drive (for whatever reasons) and 2. whatever I want or think of as desirable, which has absolutely no (zero) connection to #1.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
I personally see D/s combined with S&M in a relationship more as some kind of alternative and better form of mutuality and affection that stems from real dedication and actions rather than just having your brain dictate your neurochemistry and alter your perception at some point. I don't see how actual love can be genuine. Realistically speaking, its a trick of nature to get us to produce more children more effectively.

It has already been pointed out to you that S&M and D/s dynamics are different entities.
I specifically point out that my view applies to the combination. D/s and S/M are by no means mutually exclusive or inclusive. I don't know what you believed that you made that statement if its already that obvious that I am referring to two different concepts.
quote:


That fact that you can't see them that way is your problem and the way you think.
I don't think you meant it that way, but the only way that statement still makes sense here is if you were criticizing that I have a preference for both to be part of a relationship, which is ridiculous critique and many do have that preference.
quote:


Real love can also be genuine with neither S&M or D/s - so your point here is somewhat moot.
Its just how I feel, maybe I didn't stress it enough that it was referring to my emotional perception.
quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
quote:

In order to get what you want, you need to offer the other person something they want. You don't offer love or friendship, you offer dislike and cold sex. Can you offer service? Or money?

Because we all trade things of value in relationships. What do you have to trade that other people will want? Taking into account that for every female tops, there are a couple of dozen male bottoms a day seeking her time.

Wrong assumption.... </snip>
You shouldn't be forced to trade for unfair bargains, just because you have a human need that requires you to trade at possibly all cost.

You answer in this section just didn't make sense with what was posed.
It made sense in the way explained. Namely, that you effectively pointed out that the circumstances are such that an unequal trade is indicated or even necessary. I never said that I offer cold sex or dislike and even if I had said it, your statement still makes the assumption that you have to give more than that, particularly you named 'service or money', which is an unequal trade by definition. And I also wasn't the one who reduced this to economics, you did, I argued and argue against it.
quote:


You have categorically stated that you don't understand what is needed on an emotional level and actually don't want it.
What was being said here was that most people (in a normal world) actually do need it and also why your comments appear to be mis-understood.
Those two sentences actually made some sense.
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What you seem to reject is that people usually trade something with something else in a relationship and you fail to grasp that point.
I don't fail to grasp that point, you seem to fail to grasp it rather. Or are you implying indirectly in this sequence of sentences that being sadistic necessarily is a trade off to most couples to allow for emotional comfort? As in: the slaves allowing some sadistic pervert to torture them with their primary goal to get some real emotional comfort and affection afterwards? That does seem somehow sick and disturbing to me, not really truly mutual at all. You could train a dog to crave torture that way if you only ever gave it rewards after torturing it since it was a young. Not that I am any better here emotionally, and I am also a sick pervert and maybe it is also that experiences and conditioning in life made me that way. But if I tortured a woman I would expect she wants it plainly, and with nothing else to it, because she is a sick pervert too, and not some somehow 'conditioned girl' trying to get true affection and love through misguided means. Excuse me if that reaction is biased and judgmental, its just contrary to my concepts if it is even true as possibly implied here, which is pretty doubtful. EDIT: Well I read that again, and obviously that is partly my motivation to it, if I get more psychoanalytical, maybe I am just reflecting too much here from myself. Anyway, I feel its more because I am really messed up emotionally beyond repair, that I associate torture with love and it is not that its some kind of split perception where it is still somewhat normal and intact except for doing the torture just to get it afterwards, but that it actually has become the same. Maybe I am just over-thinking it.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
...Its just somewhat ambiguous what 'oh, remember, that thing is really painful and I have not tested the higher settings' and later .. 'please punish me more Mistress, more please, I want it so bad' means, especially if you got two unexperienced people and one is craving to be hurt really really really badly. Its just in retrospect that I realize more what was going on, that my desire did override the considerations. But it was all about myself suffering and I always knew that I was fine with anything that could possibly happen if I didn't develop some kind of psychological symptoms that influenced other areas of life. It was just very sane self-responsibility.

You almost answered yourself here...
"I was fine with anything that could possibly happen if I didn't develop some kind of psychological symptoms".
I guess you didn't think of death then??
Sane self-responsibility? I don't think so.
Extremely dangerous individual that needs to be locked up for his own safety.
Hahaha, that statement is just ridiculous. What's with the death talk? And then the conclusion 'extremely dangerous', just what did you read that no one else can see?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
My point of concern is just her possible lack of sadism, that given different circumstances, she would have only done it softly, that all women would only do it softly

This bit is extremely sexist in every way you can think of.

Just because she might have 'done it' softly, you cannot make a sweeping statement that "all women would only do it softly". I doubt very much if Lady Pact would fit into that category!!
And again, you make a logical error. I did write, that my point of concern is, her possible ... that .. all women ...would .. would .. Concern doesn't equal a solid conclusion. Concern is maybe partly rational, in any case more emotional. I used conditional verbs. Are you not a native English speaker? I speak German natively and I do clearly understand that I did express it correctly. But anyway, how can you say that it is sexist, even worse extremely sexist, to fear that women do it more softly than men? Its pretty much common sense, in the general sense, except maybe if you get into some really twisted denial and ignorance about general psychological gender differences. Dominant men outnumber dominant women considerably as do male sadist outnumber female sadist (by 4:1 iirc). Just to put the tendencies into numbers, not that I know any ad-hoc study about the extend of the preferences that would indubitably refute any other claim you could make. Not that I have said it before, but I say it now: its reasonable gender bias, as in making a qualified assessment based on all the incomplete knowledge you can possibly have, because you have to. Some people easily confuse that with sexism somehow.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui
If I am the slave and only tortured softly despite begging, I don't really feel I am loved, I feel unworthy and miserable. As if I am not good enough to make either of us enjoy it. Its just awful and sad somehow.

That's your problem I'm afraid.
It is specific to you and how you see the world.


quote:

Lady

I don't really think you are qualified in any way to know that there aren't people who feel the same as I do. But yes, maybe its just unusual, that's what I thought anyway.



Missokyst -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 3:42:34 PM)

Whoa that is a wall of text. I opted to cut to the chase.

What does it do for me? I makes me feel alive. I have been a sado-masochist pretty close to all my life, but because I am also submissive, any sadism has been directed at myself unless otherwise asked. I don't view it as a pretense because pain hurts, emotionally, physically, mentally, what ever, pain hurts. Because I am thusly wired, the mind has found ways to deal with that hurt, in my case I get sparked into life. Hurt, heals the part of me that cannot function as a normal nilla person.

D/s is something I find that is for the most part, nilla. It is relationship oooy gooey stuff, get ordered around, get wet or hard. Do for each other because that is the bond that keeps people together, one because they feel they are doing something, and two because someone is taking the time to cater to them. It is basically a reward system.

If I wear get ups, and I have, the purpose is for show and nothing else. D/s or BDSM does not mean you have to wear costumes. Instead costumes are more of a social thing, like getting dressed to go out to dinner, or wearing a bathing suit to jump in a pool.

BDSM arouses me and calms me. It takes me out of myself and resets what felt wrong. In my past I have sought it out in a dangerous way. I even spent 2 weeks shackled to the bed of some guy who might not have let me go if I were a different sort of person. That did not make that BDSM any more real or painful than doing this with people I have loved. It is not a game or a pretense. I have collapsed because sometimes it was too much. Reality.

But that in itself would not control me. I don't need outward signs of pain and torture to keep me at someones side. For me that would be a false control. To give myself to pain and let it carry me is something I allow because I need it. If it was forced upon me my view of it would be different. I am not above looking at death in the eye and challenging it. I have faced a gun that was cocked and told him to shoot. The best way to describe it is, when I was giving birth to my children I was in pain. Since I was in pain I slept, I was not allowing it to control me.

So submission for me, with or without BDSM is a choice. I choose to interact that way within a relationship. I don't need pain to feel submissive. I don't need to submit to need pain.


quote:

ORIGINAL: pqui

So please, someone explain to me, what does it do for you. And what I mean does not relate to taking things into extremes, although I am talking more about 24/7 BDSM relationships here. What I mean is, what does it do to not cut to the chase, to pretend you are doing it but not really doing it, to say one thing then do another, to (metaphorically speaking) have all the getups and symbols and items hung up and ready for the party, dress for the party, then leave the room empty and go to bed without celebrating. What kind of understanding of sadomasochism doesn't involve real pain and real torture? What kind of domination can possibly exist without real points of control and what kind of submission without giving them?

Please someone explain the gap to me.




angelikaJ -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 5:50:01 PM)

BDSM originally stood for: Bondage, Discipline, Sado-Masochism.

Throwing Dominance and Submission in was an afterthought.

Many D/s centered relationships contain zero elements from BDSM.



orgasmdenial12 -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/9/2013 11:32:17 AM)

Actually, a paragraph should be about 100 words. The average person fits about 350 words onto one side of an A4 sheet of paper. Therefore, each of your paragraphs is a page long.

Source: university essays



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