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help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 4:43:55 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The rule seems to be you need a dr to sign off on 6 mos of disabled. No Dr wants to touch it- and he cant afford a Dr since he needs medical card.


He applied for SSDI- but that could be a wait.

I got him the COMPASS site- and told him to go to our rep.

http://www.cmsu.org/crisisemergency.htm This is the closest crises line- and they serve Union county- he lives near Lewisburg.

He has had 3 back surgeries- which he paid cash- the current one did not work and the Dr says it is all in his head and wont sign off on anything. (they dont want to be sued)

This topic has been unfolding for the past few months- but my friend seems to be more deparate and he hints at suicide.

He wants to be mad at the system and bitch rather then actually take action.
He has to dispose of a car and then he will have under $2k or whatever it is - he was given food stamps. So he has been talking to the system.

If I thought he was in immediate danger I would put him as a 302. I am trying to avoid that = and a bigger crises.


Help.
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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 4:45:13 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Just to clarify- this is actually a friend and not me. I am fine with my life.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 4:48:12 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


He wants to be mad at the system and bitch rather then actually take action.


There is your answer.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 5:26:27 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I would suggest the nearest emergency room to him that has a psych unit...and if there is not one with a psych uniti near he can go to any one.

They can find him a bed some place.

BTW: depression can cause a myriad of physical symptoms; back pain (sometimes severe) is not uncommon.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 6:45:00 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		It might be best for him to spend some time on a psych unit. He is, after all, talking suicide. And lets face it, Corbett and the republicans in the state legislature have made getting on medicaid almost an impossibility for most people who do need it. One thing that is almost sure to come from a few days on the psych ward is the medical card, especially if he goes to the hospital that has the county contract for mental health. Most counties in PA have only 1 hospital that has a contract through the county for medicaid. Other hospitals might have psych units, but they generally don't accept medicaid patients or other types of county funding--just private insurances and maybe medicare.

And hey, if his back problems are "all in his head" (I hate that phrase) he obviously needs help. Instead of saying that, why didn't his doc refer him to a psychiatrist? I don't trust doctors who say shite like that without some kind of follow up treatment option.


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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 6:51:35 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		His back problems are not in his head. I seen the x-rays.

Im not sure if a psych unit is a good idea- he would lose his guns.

He is not thinking clearly. I am not going to pester him tonight yet- but I will later in the week. I am not sure why he is having such a hard time getting the medical card- unless as you say Corbett changed all that.


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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 7:08:07 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Funny....all you care about is if he loses his guns or not.

Yeah...now there is fucked up logic for ya.

Guns more important than his life.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 7:45:24 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		When you 302 someone - you dont just 302 them. Having someone committed is a serious matter. Not to be entered into lightly.

He seems in good spirits tonight. For myself I need to offer instructions - in words that he will be prompted to make progress in his ordeal. He is not thinking clearly. HE frets over everything- he needs to methodically take the needed steps to move on with his life.

Luckily he does not have a drinking problem.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 8:01:42 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Im not sure if a psych unit is a good idea- he would lose his guns.


Because suicidal people having guns is a GOOD thing?

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 8:50:15 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		It's not just about losing your guns, kalikshama, having a mental hold on your record can screw up your life in innumerable ways over and above that. From jobs to housing, it can direct where and how you live. Hunky, I'm going through a similar set experience-find a lawyer that is willing to do what is called an Emergency Instatement. Is your friend a veteran? If so, call the VA. They're not the best, but it's something.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 9:02:05 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		It's kinda funny to see the excuses people use to not have someone committed. It tells me that the person being alive and healthy is not important...only those guns and where they live and what kind of job they get is.

Personally, if I had to have someone committed (and I did and I did commit her), the last thing I'd be worrying about is what is going to happen after. I'm more concerned if she is going to survive another day.


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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 9:12:36 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		Again, it's not the guns-it's everything else that goes along with having a mental health order written against you. It can literally color everything in your life from that moment onward. I've personally seen people lose their driver's licenses, professional licenses, their insurance rates can go up, etc,etc. If someone is truly suicidal, they don't screw around-they do it. From what I can gather, this guy is more angry and frustrated than anything else. There's a big difference there.

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The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 11:07:30 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

Hunky, fuck the government, consigning him to them is a fate worse than death, and quite frankly, no offense intented, you are not really qualified to do it because you are on their shit.

I have only called a couple of people's bluffs, but if you can, use their gun. After stickng it fully loaded and cocked in your mouth pointing up and watching their reaction, point it at them., Ask them if thart makes them uncomfortable. If so, why ?

"You know I oculd always hold on to this gun until tomorrow, then you can do it, or maybe I will use it first...". Then if the neighborhood is right or it is like four AM, shoot something out in the yard. "That could be your head".

Been there done it Hunky. One I had to do it over the phone and that was a fail. The fucker hung himself. He had Huntington's disease and professed good reason. I found out about the diseasee and I was short on argument, he knew what the fuck he was talking about. Another one I stood up at a window in a fourth stroy apartment. If he didn't die it would hurt like hell and he would have wished he woulda. He didn't have as good reason though.

I know two things Hunky about you that are apparent. First of all you do not know the same kind of peole I know or have known and also you would not do what I did and said. So the alternative is to make him THINK you are going to kill him or help him kill himself. Offer him poison.

It doesn't really have to be poison and if he knows you too well he would have known that just to get your goat, but if he does ingest it, that proves you DO have a problem and he is NOT crying wolf. That does not mean that I recommend committing him, but you might consider it. If you REALLY want to help the guy and you REALLY have to put him in, get him drunk first. I shit you not. At least that way he can get out of it later and have or keep a CCW. We need every last good Man. And it is NOT YOUR BUSINESS to tell "them" about any guns he might have.

If he has the mental accutiy to get himself released and then subsequently blow his own head off you have to let him do it. It is within his rights.

It's just that it is fair and right to require a bit of a test before they leave their brain matter all over the place. I would insist on watching him do it as well, another level of deterrent, though you don't know (at ANY time really) what is going to happen when someone gets alone.

Good luck with this shit. I hate dealing with it but if you don't do the push you are letting, even enabling someone to become somethng that should have pulled the fucking trigger. IF you can get them to snap out of it, which usually ONLY happens when the opportunity is reallly there, they will never really think to do it again unless things really do get to that point.

Maybe shit is really that bad for him.

Would YOU want to live his life ? Ask yourself that before he does.

T^T

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/13/2013 11:58:49 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I couldn't have just read this thread. It isn't possible.

Won't commit someone that is suicidal because the suicidal person will lose their guns. Well, let me get this right, suicidal people with guns are a good idea because they never commit murder-suicide, ever. So, instead of taking their own life, some other poor bastard pays the price as well. Lovely. And if the person is really suicidal and owns a gun, he would likely be dead. Suicidal people that really want to commit suicide rarely hint at it or talk about it. You normally find them dead.

Don't get the suicidal person help, or have them committed because it will fuck up their future! If a suicidal person doesn't get help and they kill themselves, do they have a future? You really want to gamble on if they are serious or not? You know, while it may make things difficult for someone, at least they are alive to have those problems. And I have known a lot of people who have been involuntarily committed and have perfectly normal lives with perfectly normal jobs now.

Stuff a gun in the suicidal person's mouth and threaten to pull the trigger because that will shock them into not committing suicide. Let me see, stuff loaded gun in someones mouth who may or may not be suicidal. Threaten to pull trigger. Nothing can go wrong there can it? I mean, someone on the Internet said it worked once for them. And... hey... sticking the gun in their mouth worked! However the police are now taking you in to jail for attempted murder, or actual murder if the gun would happen to accidentally go off. Guns never accidentally go off... ever.

Maybe they should kill themselves. Wait... what?

Seriously? I had to talk to someone very dear to me who sat there with a loaded pistol to their head and they were ready to pull that trigger. I sat there and talked to them for 45 minutes... felt like 45,000 years. I talked them down and talked them into getting help. Their life may not be the absolute most perfect life ever, but it is a far cry from being dead and never getting another chance. I also had to come to grips with the fact that if they wanted to commit suicide, there was nothing anyone could do to stop them. People that want to kill themselves do. People that don't want to are crying out for help because they only see one solution.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Of course you can argue that those with terminal conditions don't have a temporary problem, but that isn't at issue here. Sitting there and doing nothing isn't going to help them. If you are friends with him, talk very frankly to them about your concerns. Ask them if they would like your help so that they can get to a place where they are safe and they can sort things out. If someone voluntarily commits themselves they can still own guns... but they shouldn't have access to them for a long time until they feel they can manage their own life again. The biggest question you have to ask yourself is: What happens if I do nothing and they die at their own hand and I could have helped prevent that? Look, they may kill themselves even after getting help for them, but it wouldn't be because you sat there and didn't try to help.

Strangest replies to a thread... ever. Ever.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/14/2013 1:48:51 AM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


Stuff a gun in the suicidal person's mouth and threaten to pull the trigger because that will shock them into not committing suicide. Let me see, stuff loaded gun in someones mouth who may or may not be suicidal. Threaten to pull trigger. Nothing can go wrong there can it? I mean, someone on the Internet said it worked once for them. And... hey... sticking the gun in their mouth worked! However the police are now taking you in to jail for attempted murder, or actual murder if the gun would happen to accidentally go off. Guns never accidentally go off... ever.





My reply to what was written by Termyn8or was mistaken. I am very tired and I misread the reply.

However, sticking the gun in your own mouth is not a better idea... loaded guns being pointed at anything you do not intend to kill is simply asking for disaster. I mean, what happens if the friend leaps on you to try to get the gun out of your mouth... or something like that. There are 100,000 things that could go wrong with that idea and you have a slim chance that it will go right. Displaying irrational and risky behavior in the face of something this serious is not smart in any way, shape, or form.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/14/2013 5:06:34 AM   
Asyra


Posts: 618
Joined: 1/5/2010
Status: offline 		Careful with the idea of "Those who want to commit suicide don't talk about it, but just do it."
That's a common, wrong belief. Most suicides come after hints or talking about it. Great danger in not taking them seriously. It may start as a cry for help (which in my eyes makes it no less serious) and just end up in so much desperation that, well, you do it.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/14/2013 5:24:38 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I figure my time line is a month or more. But I have at least month on this one. He has cash to pay his bills for a month.

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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/14/2013 5:40:28 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Again, it's not the guns-it's everything else that goes along with having a mental health order written against you. It can literally color everything in your life from that moment onward. I've personally seen people lose their driver's licenses, professional licenses, their insurance rates can go up, etc,etc. If someone is truly suicidal, they don't screw around-they do it. From what I can gather, this guy is more angry and frustrated than anything else. There's a big difference there.



Yes. As a friend- if I over re-act then it is all on me. I have a month I figure. Also- suicides are done with pills, carbon monoxide, jumping off of bridges. He has 2 kids- so that will be something for him to think about.


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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/14/2013 6:32:41 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

It's kinda funny to see the excuses people use to not have someone committed. It tells me that the person being alive and healthy is not important...only those guns and where they live and what kind of job they get is.

Personally, if I had to have someone committed (and I did and I did commit her), the last thing I'd be worrying about is what is going to happen after. I'm more concerned if she is going to survive another day.


Two weeks ago, my alcoholic downstairs neighbor was drunk and obnoxious again. The week before, a guy she sees (who was not present) sent the cops to the house and they PC'd her for the night. This time, the cops took one look at her and said she was going to the hospital. My other downstairs neighbor (they are friends with benefits) followed up with the hospital and told them about the suicidal ideation she'd expressed, how she burnt herself when drunk and spent four days in the burn unit, etc. If not for his intervention, they would not have placed her on a three day psychiatric hold at another hospital. She told them she was a "light social drinker" with no plans to harm herself. He followed up with the staff there too, both in person and on the phone. Despite this, they released her Tuesday with some voluntary out patient treatment. She got shit faced again Saturday. (She'd left the house on the pretext of hanging out with her gf.)

We're really concerned that she will kill herself or someone else while driving. The first hospital encouraged him to do a Section 35, but he's afraid she will leave him if he does. The night I called the cops, she told me she hated me, and I replied that I didn't care if she hated me as long as she got help.

Anyway, my point is that while it is not easy to force help on someone who does not want it, I believe the right thing to do is to try.

Oh, her blood alcohol level the night I called the cops was 0.45.

0.40–0.50

- General lack of behavior
- Unconsciousness
- Possibility of death


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RE: help getting PA medical card- friend becoming suicidal - 8/14/2013 7:15:39 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asyra

Careful with the idea of "Those who want to commit suicide don't talk about it, but just do it."
That's a common, wrong belief. Most suicides come after hints or talking about it. Great danger in not taking them seriously. It may start as a cry for help (which in my eyes makes it no less serious) and just end up in so much desperation that, well, you do it.

And you are quite correct about that as well. I've only dealt with one personal friend who killed himself, and I missed/misinterpreted the signs. If the guy all of sudden gets calm, peaceful, and happy even in the face of chaos, then it'd behoove hunkboy to call for the truck. Again, I want to stress, it's not about the guy losing his guns. That is a big thing, especially for someone like me, but not the biggest thing here.

Once someone is into that system, it's damned hard to get out because providers are past masters at milking the system to maximum effect, rather than actually helping people. If a judge gives out a 30-day hold on someone without insurance, that means some entity is going to make thousands of dollars keeping him on a psych unit. And that's not taking into account the meds they get, the "therapy" the receive, etc, etc. Sometimes, it is needed and welcomed after the fact.

Forever after, that person is going to have that incident following them around. If they're looking for work, it can and will factor into the decision to hire them, ADA be damned. As I said before, I know of someone whose been denied a license to drive truck. Before his fallout, he had a hazmat endorsement. Now he's on a restricted operators-only (passenger car). He can't even get hired as a cabbie.

He's not only lost his career and income, he's also been denied access to living spaces based on that. He doesn't want to live on Buffalo's East Side, where all the Section 8 landlords do business. Right now, he's living with his sister because no one will rent to him. And the worst part is, when the private company that was awarded the contract to monitor post-treatment patients here needs a little more operating cash, they tend to go to the judges and say they have "concerns" about someone's welfare. The gavel comes down and there's another 30 day hold, at 5K a day.

And since he has no insurance anymore, Medicaid picks up most of the tab, the rest is on him. Last time I spoke with him he said he owed roughly 60K in co-pays he can't afford, on top of the past dues on everything else he used to own, his truck, his house, etc. For that reason, and that reason alone, I highly suggest that an alternate route be found. All it took was one exasperated utterance, and he has become what the system claims to cure, a paranoid schizophrenic with suicidal tendencies. He literally lost everything he'd worked for since he was in his twenties.

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