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Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/15/2013 11:00:22 PM   
WarMachine904


Posts: 123
Joined: 8/2/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL area
Status: offline 		Due to the several "heated" debates that have transpired here recently, I couldn't help but wonder...

Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised?

Obviously, not everyone feels this way, but it seems to be a popular point of view.

Psychological, emotional, and physical needs vary from person to person, as do the intensity, triggers, and fixation on those needs. Over time, general categories of BDSM related behaviors have been accepted, and so people identify themselves with these templated categories, in a general sense.

However, with the magnitude of variance from person to person, how could there possibly be only one way to do a bondage scene, for instance. Is there a BDSM academy or university that is accredited by some governing body that regulates how I choose to paddle my wife, or with what, or better yet, how she must feel when I do? Obviously, that was rhetorical, and I was exercising some sarcasm.

IMO, JeffBC has the right answer...by refusing the trappings of labels, categories, or titles, he feels liberated to practice the definition of BDSM that works for he and his wife.

However, by identifying with a category or title, I still have the perogative to practice MY OWN definition of BDSM as I see fit. And so does EVERYONE! I joined the forums for the same reasons as most, I suspect...to share experiences, ask questions, and have intelligent thought provoking conversations with other similar (not exact) minded people who may offer me another perspective on a particular topic, that will further the understanding of MY OWN needs. Because afterall, that is what this is. Personal exploration into the various things that heighten our sexual pleasure and and sexual self awareness.

I invite any commentary on this topic...unless someone wants to talk trash, and then I am going to get another gold lettered message (my feable attempt at satirical humor)!


< Message edited by WarMachine904 -- 8/15/2013 11:01:51 PM >

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/15/2013 11:17:16 PM   
ibringchocolate


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/12/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WarMachine904

Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised?


I don't think that's unique to BDSM. Lots of people think their opinion is a fact, and the way they see the world is the way everyone should see the world.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/15/2013 11:19:13 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised?


Because that's the way humans are made?

Seriously, some of us have been through hell and back to get to where we are today, we've learned some things, and we like to stop others from making the same mistakes, if we can.

Naturally, others of us are just arrogant know-it-all assholes who like to pontificate on a web site. It's up to the individual to decide who is who on any given day, since these subsets vary according to the topic.

Although there are those who *do* take an anything goes attitude to BDSM, I would not be one of them. There are places, both physically and mentally, where I won't go and don't think others should go. I tend to keep my mouth shut unless we're talking amputation. I also have strong ideas about training (yes, I'm fine with that term) b/c since I'm a switch, I know very well how easy it is to take a sub into uncharted emotional waters. And you know, once you take someone somewhere, you're still responsible for them.

I tend to move very slowly in my relationships for just this reason. (I'm all about the mental, the physical rides along for the party.)

Which means I've developed a strong code for what should and should not be done from an ethical standpoint.

Most people with a strong ethical standpoint think they're 'right' and will self-righteously cram their ideals down other's throats. I try not to do this, I doubt I always succeed.





< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 8/15/2013 11:28:35 PM >

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/15/2013 11:25:42 PM   
WarMachine904


Posts: 123
Joined: 8/2/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL area
Status: offline 		It seems that way.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/15/2013 11:39:02 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WarMachine904

Due to the several "heated" debates that have transpired here recently, I couldn't help but wonder...

Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised?

Obviously, not everyone feels this way, but it seems to be a popular point of view.



People tend to respond using their own filters of how they would react to certain treatment/behaviors/activities. I actually think a lot of folks on these threads are pretty open to the idea that there's more than one way to do this, but they respond from their own personal perspectives. It's a human nature thing.

Also, you (generic) start talking about ways of tapping into a person's mind and changing things around - well that's risky territory if you don't fully know what you're doing, or about the psychological and emotional make up of the person you're doing it to. People tend to get protective about that shit and with good reason. Goodness knows we've seen a lot of shit said on these boards over the years and some of it's been a little concerning, to say the least.


quote:


However, by identifying with a category or title, I still have the perogative to practice MY OWN definition of BDSM as I see fit. And so does EVERYONE!



Well yes, and everyone (yourself included) also has the prerogative to disagree with the way someone else is doing things. Particularly if they find them unhealthy, or if they've had a higher failure than success rate at it.


quote:


I joined the forums for the same reasons as most, I suspect...to share experiences, ask questions, and have intelligent thought provoking conversations with other similar (not exact) minded people who may offer me another perspective on a particular topic, that will further the understanding of MY OWN needs. Because afterall, that is what this is. Personal exploration into the various things that heighten our sexual pleasure and and sexual self awareness.



See we differ here. From the sentence I bolded above, you are limiting pleasure and awareness to sexual. My relationship expands far beyond sexuality, in fact, sexuality is just a piece of it. So, if you're looking at this from a sexual only point of view, of course you're going to get differing opinions from those who are looking at individuals as a whole being - sexual, emotional, spiritual, mental, humorous, artistic - you get the idea. Lots of perspectives here.

I'm not going to speak for everyone else, but I suspect the folks here are a whole blend of elements in addition to sexual. So a conversation about slavery in general comes up, if you're just talking about sexual pleasure and awareness, you'll get a lot of disagreeing. Slavery is not sexual to me, although it includes sex.




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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 12:05:18 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Here's how I see this.......

It's a forum. On a forum, the idea is to discuss various opinions. The idea isn't to just feed folks happy, happy sunshine. That means that people are going to give opinions that others may not like.

Me? I don't care what you do to your wife as long as a) it doesn't affect Me in any way whatsoever, b) it doesn't affect the play spaces that I frequent, c) is something that you can contain within your household while your dynamic is current and d) your wife never turns the tables on you and decides after the fact that she's been abused.

That list is a lot more comprehensive than some people might think it is. If you get it in your head that you want to drop a concrete block on her head to test her submission and you can't pay for the resulting hospital bills, that has an indirect effect on Me. Same thing if your methods scramble her brain to where she leaves you and suffers panic attacks for the next two years to the point where she's on disability. Yes, there's more than one way to bind a person. If your way is unsafe, increasing the chances that paramedics and the police end up being called to the play space that I attend, by extension, you are putting Myself and every other attendee at risk.

There are some boneheaded things that people come up with in the name of BDSM. Not every idea is a good idea, such as buying a whip when you've never held one before and decide it's a good idea to use it on your wife come Saturday night. Stuff like that, I honestly expect people to speak up about.


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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 12:17:28 AM   
WarMachine904


Posts: 123
Joined: 8/2/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL area
Status: offline 		ChatteParfaitt,

Thank you for your input that contained some valid points.

As a group I have no problem with adamantly objecting when safety is concerned, whether physical, emotional, or mental.

However the approach that seems to be happen so often, of flaming so many people looking for legitimate advice or answers, may do serious harm as well. Yet it seems to occur quite regularly on this forum.

If a person comes on here and asks a question because they are uncertain of something, and they get flamed as many do, that person may be too embarrassed to ask for advice when they find themselves at the hands of a sociopathic predator posing as a dominant. Or asking for advice before engaging in edgy, dangerous forms of BDSM.

Although there are some fantastic posters here that are very helpful, there are some that attempt to self-validate by posting responses that are self serving in an attempt to mask their own inadequacies by insisting that their opinion or view is absolute.

Hopefully, that changes.


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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 12:26:18 AM   
WarMachine904


Posts: 123
Joined: 8/2/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL area
Status: offline 		LadyPact,

I agree with every point that you covered. And a forum is a great place for debate. However, barring any of the examples that you mentioned that could potentially affect another adversely, some of us might want to reflect on the discussion taking place here, expand their horizons, and learn to accept that everyone is entitled to their own views, even if they disagree.

I appreciate your input, as well.

< Message edited by WarMachine904 -- 8/16/2013 12:29:59 AM >

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 1:06:24 AM   
WarMachine904


Posts: 123
Joined: 8/2/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL area
Status: offline 		Nueva Vida,

I have no problem with intelligent debate, and fully expect a person to articulate their position. That kind of discourse promotes learning. But I also realize that I will not agree with everyone's view and when the debate gets to a point that is no longer productive, I respectfully agree to disagree. No hard feelings. But when a person leaves the field of intelligent debate and resorts to aggressive behavior in an attempt to force their view upon me, well...stand by!

As far as the post you referred to about behavior mods and mind alteration, it was in response to a previous post where the poster said it could not be done. You cannot alter a person's personality, is what was said. That is untrue, I know it to be untrue, and I explained my position. I in no way shape or form said that it was morally or legally acceptable. Only that it was, in fact, possible.

The statement that you bolded should have been better articulated, but I did address those elements as well in an earlier paragraph in that post. My thoughts when composing the sentence that you bolded, were fixated on expressing that this exploration is personal, and thus varies for everyone. I personally am more interested in understanding the psychology behind the different forms of kink, what causes the heightened sexual arrousal, how it becomes associated with the trigger, etc. I not only find it interesting, it enables me to further my own exploration. Being dominant, I find the control more exciting than the sex itself, although often sex is a medium for exerting control.

I don't care if someone agrees with me, or not. But I still welcome spirited debate, to determine if there is something that I overlooked or had not previously known or thought of. Just don't be a Richard Cranium (probably another gold lettered message for that).

That is really my point for starting this thread.

Thank you also for taking the time to express your views.




< Message edited by WarMachine904 -- 8/16/2013 1:11:48 AM >

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 1:26:35 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

I don't think that's unique to BDSM. Lots of people think their opinion is a fact, and the way they see the world is the way everyone should see the world.

What s/he said.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 1:42:59 AM   
jola37


Posts: 433
Joined: 7/8/2013
Status: offline 		+ and again +1

The world is full of people like that. Defo not a unique thing to dbsm. There are the levels we're all at too, someone dispensing advice about an activity they've been into for 6 months is probably going to be different to someone who's been doing it for 40 years. Both accounts could be different yet totally valid depending upon where the reader is at in their journey.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 2:20:01 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Im on the rock climbing forums, the horse forums, the dog forums and some BDSM forums and on every site there are leaders, followers, outsiders. We have trolls and we have school ground throw backs, the bully! In all the years I've been here, I have seen nice people join this site who have shown themselves to be initially helpful members. Its interesting watching those same people develop into intimidating individuals who will happily tear another poster to pieces at every opportunity. Once they evolve and feel part of the 'family' they will say what they want regardless of how personal or insulting it is and knowing full well that they can always rely on the support of followers to bail them out of trouble. These people will never disagree with another respected member

There are many people here who come and ask prudent questions regarding BDSM and D/s relationships and many of those posters will come under a cruel personal attack by forum users trying to destroy there reputation.

There's a lot of strong opinions here and nothing wrong with that. Nothing like diversity and being able to freely express ones views. Keeping it grown up is often a problem though. So many resort to personal insults and dig up the ops past posts or profile to prove their point.

We all have our opportunities to be 'little know it alls!' and some have a whole team behind them to back them up. The truth is, theres a lot of combined experience on CM of all things BDSM but the D/s side of things is so hugely subjective, we have to accept variables with each individual. Therefore, take from it what you find useful and disguard the rest. :)



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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 3:25:16 AM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		That is why I agree so much with Jeff and LP. they have the same feelings towards things as I do.
Do what works for you, so long as you aren't affecting my life.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 5:34:36 AM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

That is why I agree so much with Jeff and LP. they have the same feelings towards things as I do.
Do what works for you, so long as you aren't affecting my life.



But that is a subject value isn't it. When does it affect our life?

Is it when it happens to directly like treat you rudely in a venue just because your a woman.

Or maybe treats a friend poorly.

Maybe does something dangerous to some in your community but not some you socialize with.

Maybe. It happens on the other side of the country.


I happen to think we are all connected in some way. I live thousands miles away from the street gangs of LA. But they affect the world I live in. Things ripple through our society, good or bad. The famines in Africa affect my world. The holocaust was happening before the world war started and eventually what was happening thousands miles away affecting the entire world and still affect us to his day.

I don't think it isn't a question if it affects us. It's only a situation of when it impacts us enough that its noticeable enough that we are willing to take action. Of course some pele are sheep and close their doors or put their head in the sand (Chamberlain really comes to mind there). Others get out and take action rightly or wrongly.



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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 7:15:08 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		What ibringchocolate said...A long time ago, I was a mod on a firearms/shooting board, and what transpired over on that other thread was tame compared to what some of those geezers would do to what they perceived as a 'stupid question' or someone who didn't do things 'their way'. I occasionally peeked in over there to see the fireworks. It wasn't pretty, that much I can say.

No matter what you say or how you say something here, there's someone who'll take a hairy eyeball to it. That's fact. You can either choose to throw gasoline on the fire or stand back and let it go out. And you're right, there's no one "True" way to do things. You can only do things the way you want to and your partner is willing to let you do.

I discovered this with the first thread I put up, and discovered the same thing-not everyone sees things as I do. And that means that I don't have to see things their way, either. Do as you will and how you will. That's Hedonism 101 in a nutshell.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 7:20:14 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		I don't think this is unique to BDSM. I have seen this same thing in parenting, religion, homeschooling. Yeah homeschooling. There are a lot of homeschooling groups I refuse to have anything to do with because they are just weird.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 8:00:22 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Well most of the causes can be found in that America of all societies, is an...'instant expert society.' And that's on most subjects.

So while most are not anything close to being an expert, they come to forums such as this or elsewhere and through the protection of anonymity...lose their normal dress of politeness, sometimes respect too.

Once there, it is their expert opinion that not only should you listen and read, you...should heed. I have at times come across as not knowing that much but often as with anybody, our opinions come from a particular perspective and I guess they think I am exposed because of what, when I need it, I ask questions because I need to be informed further I don't and nobody...knows it all.

I try see issues as another does or 'that' person's perspective and try to explain mine. Then when it comes to learning...I put things in the form of a question, rather than a stipulation of fact.

So no, most should take everything here and places like this with a huge grain of slat.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 8:05:43 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Some more thoughts.....

I don't have the exact quote but it goes some thing like for evil to triumph good men do nothing. For me it is one of the more powerful quotes or concepts that I listen to and heard. This quote is not just about speaking upon in the face of evil. Can be as simple as speaking up when you see a friend making a huge mistake in your opinion. It's about being mindfully engaged in your world and seeking to make it a better place.

We don't always approach it in a constructive way and even when we do it is not heard constructively. We are not perfect, but that is still not a reason to sit on the sidelines watching stupid or bad things happen.

Secondly, people are right in that their is no true way or one way. But that doesn't mean that every way is acceptable. It doesn't mean that there is not right ways and wrong ways. I recall a girl on this site and I was very negative towards her and her dynamic. She was being abused and harmed. I was an evil person for being so one way true against her. In her pain and dysfunction she was unable at that time in her life her that I was talking about the way she was doing was wrong for her. Frankly, I didn't expect or hope that she would listen and change at that moment. But I did hope she would some day remember and hear the words after the train wreck occurred. I hope she heard me tell her that she was worth it and she was better than that. I took a lot of talk for standing up and speaking out.

Years later, the train wreck has passed and I the girl is taking the steps out of her abyss. I still see her posting every now and again. It is always a pleasure to see her walking her path the way that is right for her. I suppose nothing I said really is the reason for her success, not even alittle bit. But I can look in the mirror and be happy I said something. I did let evil do go unchallenged and just maybe someone is alittle better because of it.

We are not perfect. We are all lacking to some degree or another. But to watch and do and say nothing seems like a cowardice way in my eyes.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 8:06:00 AM   
seekingreality


Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WarMachine904



However the approach that seems to be happen so often, of flaming so many people looking for legitimate advice or answers, may do serious harm as well. Yet it seems to occur quite regularly on this forum.

If a person comes on here and asks a question because they are uncertain of something, and they get flamed as many do, that person may be too embarrassed to ask for advice when they find themselves at the hands of a sociopathic predator posing as a dominant. Or asking for advice before engaging in edgy, dangerous forms of BDSM.



Dude, it's the Internet, not a polite little tea room. You'll get every personality in the spectrum, including people who are rude, sarcastic, stupid, and spout out their opinion without regard for the other person's feelings; as well as people who come here simply because they like to argue, be contentious, ridicule others, and try to make other people feel bad. If someone can't handle that, they shouldn't be seeking out information on interactive forums -- they should be looking in books or on static web sites. where they don't have to worry about anyone judging them and getting their feelings hurt. If this forum is someone's only defense against sociopathic predators, they're doomed already.

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RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... - 8/16/2013 8:11:06 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

What ibringchocolate said...A long time ago, I was a mod on a firearms/shooting board, and what transpired over on that other thread was tame compared to what some of those geezers would do to what they perceived as a 'stupid question' or someone who didn't do things 'their way'. I occasionally peeked in over there to see the fireworks. It wasn't pretty, that much I can say.


I've seen pretty much the same on other message boards I've frequented. I guess I've developed a bit of a thick skin over time, having seen plenty of fireworks on different boards and how they generally get started. More often than not, the fireworks have very little to do with any substantial disagreement, opposing philosophies, or anything like that; usually has to do with either a personal insult or some slight of that nature. So, someone feels insulted and feels the need to respond in kind, and then you have a big old flamewar on your hands.

It doesn't even matter what the discussion is about. Someone could just come in and post something like "I like chocolate ice cream," and there will invariably be somebody who will start an argument about it. Some people are like that. I've never been able to fathom why, but it seems to be a recurring theme in most message boards I've encountered.

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