quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Really? You gotta post that!

Well that's what it was reported as being by the guy who caught it, and it looks like him to me. Obama supported Morsi, of course, and last I heard he was calling for Morsi's release. So it makes sense.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thoughts or feelings on the horrendous situation in Egypt anyone?

........land of the Pharaoh's........

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I vote for Cleopatra the first muslim prezzi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

If we back the latter, then we may just have killed off the idea of democracy world wide.

Are you fucking insane ? Tell me about the democracy in Suadi, YES SAUDI Arabia. Spill it boy, I want to hear about all the fucking freedom and democracy the US dollars have bestowed there.

take your interventionist, colonialiost attitude to Antarctica where it belings. We have not the soldiers, bullets and dollars to support your worldwide ideal.

Sorry bout thaat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I don't think Obama would find it humiliating. When has he ever found anything humiliating?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Really? You gotta post that!

Well that's what it was reported as being by the guy who caught it, and it looks like him to me. Obama supported Morsi, of course, and last I heard he was calling for Morsi's release. So it makes sense.

K.

Damn! I was hoping for an AQ flag too but that's still pretty funny. I wonder which president finds what more humiliating...George Bush's face in a hotel mosaic with Arabs walking over it every day or Obama's face painted on t-shirts worn by supposed terrorists?

Care to wager?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Really? You gotta post that!

Well that's what it was reported as being by the guy who caught it, and it looks like him to me. Obama supported Morsi, of course, and last I heard he was calling for Morsi's release. So it makes sense.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Did I miss the thread on Egypt?

With all the hell that is breaking loose in the land of the Pharaoh's, no one is talking about all the unrest in Egypt around here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
My greatest fear is that Arabs will conclude that democracy holds nothing for them

quote:

Egypt has your nations financial backing right

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Egypt has your nations financial backing right

Yes and Egypt under the Brotherhood had our backing as well. Damn a few threads ago when I said overthrowing the elected government would cause civil war I was shouted down...Told...oh they are new at democracy and the brotherhood broke promises and the overthrow was good. Well who was right. Now some of the same hypocrites are criticizing the US for not withdrawing aid. They were all for the aid when the brotherhood was kicked out illegally.

The US should just stay the hell out of their mess and not influence or help either side...Obama is handling it the right way.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
With something in excess of 600 deaths to date, and more expected, the situation in Egypt is clearly chaotic, verging on catastrophic. Sadly the violence was predictable, almost inevitable. Where did it all go wrong?

Good question, and I think we can officially call it "catastrophic" at this point.

Morsi's Presidency was little short of a disaster. With his hands tied on side by the need to reward his Brotherhood base, and on the other by an over-riding need to keep the military onside, Morsi's decisions inflamed his political opponents and managed to alienate many of the masses who had voted him into power. Perversely, the military coup was welcomed by those who claim to support the democratic process and denounced by the MB and its few remaining allies. With so much blood spilled already and the inevitable prospect of more to come, it is difficult to see how either side can compromise. Will Egypt follow Syria into civil war? As things stand, the signs are not good. Denied access to power democratically won by an illegal military coup, and facing a military that has shown it will not stop at at any means to crush it, what other options does the MB still hold?

Generally, the demise of democracy was welcomed by the West, even if the West's leaders couldn't say it in so many words. The reaction of the Obama White House typifies this - refusing to denounce the coup as a "coup", while mouthing empty noises about the need to return to some vestige of democracy asap. Of course, everyone on the ground scornfully ignored the West's pathetic response.

Treated like village idiots by the Israelis. arming Al Quada-linked rebels in Syria, arming and supporting vicious despots in Saudi Arabia and other theocracies/monarchies, taking Iraq to the verge of civil war, acting belligerently towards Iran as punishment for (allegedly) daring to do what Israel has done for decades - develop nuclear weapons - without so much as a pip squeak of protest from the West, it is difficult to discern any coherence in US policy towards the region, if in fact there is a US policy at all. US irrelevance and impotence in the face a worsening situation across the region is the inevitable price the US pays for slavishly following Israeli dictates instead of developing a policy that suits US interests.

My greatest fear is that Arabs will conclude that democracy holds nothing for them, forcing them into more extreme positions, reviving AQ from its death bed and restoring AQ as a force to reckoned with in the Arab world. But after the tragic events in Egypt, and the ongoing punishment inflicted on Gazans for exercising their democratic choices, on what basis can we ask Arabs and Muslims to trust the ballot box in future?

quote:

Yes and Egypt under the Brotherhood had our backing as well. Damn a few threads ago when I said overthrowing the elected government would cause civil war I was shouted down...Told...oh they are new at democracy and the brotherhood broke promises and the overthrow was good. Well who was right. Now some of the same hypocrites are criticizing the US for not withdrawing aid. They were all for the aid when the brotherhood was kicked out illegally.

The US should just stay the hell out of their mess and not influence or help either side...Obama is handling it the right way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
With something in excess of 600 deaths to date, and more expected, the situation in Egypt is clearly chaotic, verging on catastrophic. Sadly the violence was predictable, almost inevitable. Where did it all go wrong?

Good question, and I think we can officially call it "catastrophic" at this point.

Morsi's Presidency was little short of a disaster. With his hands tied on side by the need to reward his Brotherhood base, and on the other by an over-riding need to keep the military onside, Morsi's decisions inflamed his political opponents and managed to alienate many of the masses who had voted him into power. Perversely, the military coup was welcomed by those who claim to support the democratic process and denounced by the MB and its few remaining allies. With so much blood spilled already and the inevitable prospect of more to come, it is difficult to see how either side can compromise. Will Egypt follow Syria into civil war? As things stand, the signs are not good. Denied access to power democratically won by an illegal military coup, and facing a military that has shown it will not stop at at any means to crush it, what other options does the MB still hold?

Generally, the demise of democracy was welcomed by the West, even if the West's leaders couldn't say it in so many words. The reaction of the Obama White House typifies this - refusing to denounce the coup as a "coup", while mouthing empty noises about the need to return to some vestige of democracy asap. Of course, everyone on the ground scornfully ignored the West's pathetic response.

Treated like village idiots by the Israelis. arming Al Quada-linked rebels in Syria, arming and supporting vicious despots in Saudi Arabia and other theocracies/monarchies, taking Iraq to the verge of civil war, acting belligerently towards Iran as punishment for (allegedly) daring to do what Israel has done for decades - develop nuclear weapons - without so much as a pip squeak of protest from the West, it is difficult to discern any coherence in US policy towards the region, if in fact there is a US policy at all. US irrelevance and impotence in the face a worsening situation across the region is the inevitable price the US pays for slavishly following Israeli dictates instead of developing a policy that suits US interests.

My greatest fear is that Arabs will conclude that democracy holds nothing for them, forcing them into more extreme positions, reviving AQ from its death bed and restoring AQ as a force to reckoned with in the Arab world. But after the tragic events in Egypt, and the ongoing punishment inflicted on Gazans for exercising their democratic choices, on what basis can we ask Arabs and Muslims to trust the ballot box in future?

When you speak of Muslims are you talking about AQ and the MB?
I hope you are separating extremists from mainstream Muslims.
Thanks for giving us something to think about.

More questions than answers, but everyone in the world is going to be effected, at some point down the road.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

Yes and Egypt under the Brotherhood had our backing as well. Damn a few threads ago when I said overthrowing the elected government would cause civil war I was shouted down...Told...oh they are new at democracy and the brotherhood broke promises and the overthrow was good. Well who was right. Now some of the same hypocrites are criticizing the US for not withdrawing aid. They were all for the aid when the brotherhood was kicked out illegally.

The US should just stay the hell out of their mess and not influence or help either side...Obama is handling it the right way.

I agree the US should not become involved ALONE.
I think that world leaders need to sit down and strategize {hopefully
they are doing that already}.
At some point countries will HAVE to get involved in the ME and North Africa, at that time, there should be a coalition of countries from ALL over the world sending troops.

Common sense should tell us, that ONE country going in will not be enough.
Thanks.

quote:

The 'Arab Spring' showed us clearly that overwhelmingly Arabs and Muslims in the region prefer democracy over AQ-type extremism.

It is helpful to differentiate between the MB and AQ-type extremists. In Egypt, the party closest to AQ is the Salafi party, not the MB which has charted a more moderate course for decades. My concern is that the events in Egypt will force Arabs and Muslims into the arms of extremists. I'm sorry if that wasn't crystal clear in my post.

Thanks for clearing this point up for me.

My concluding question remains valid: The West punishes Arabs for exercising their democratic choices. The US finances the Egyptian military to the tune of over a billion $ a year - not because the US is interested in Egyptian prosperity but as a bribe to neutralise Egyptian opposition to Israel. Arabs have good grounds for concluding that democracy is only allowed on the condition that democratic 'choices' are pro-Western. So on what basis can we ask them to trust their future to democracy when we punish them for making democratic choices?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The 'Arab Spring' showed us clearly that overwhelmingly Arabs and Muslims in the region prefer democracy over AQ-type extremism.

It is helpful to differentiate between the MB and AQ-type extremists. In Egypt, the party closest to AQ is the Salafi party, not the MB which has charted a more moderate course for decades. My concern is that the events in Egypt will force Arabs and Muslims into the arms of extremists. I'm sorry if that wasn't crystal clear in my post.

My concluding question remains valid: The West punishes Arabs for exercising their democratic choices. The US finances the Egyptian military to the tune of over a billion $ a year - not because the US is interested in Egyptian prosperity but as a bribe to neutralise Egyptian opposition to Israel. Arabs have good grounds for concluding that democracy is only allowed on the condition that democratic 'choices' are pro-Western. So on what basis can we ask them to trust their future to democracy when we punish them for making democratic choices?