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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
With something in excess of 600 deaths to date, and more expected, the situation in Egypt is clearly chaotic, verging on catastrophic. Sadly the violence was predictable, almost inevitable. Where did it all go wrong?

Good question, and I think we can officially call it "catastrophic" at this point.

Morsi's Presidency was little short of a disaster. With his hands tied on side by the need to reward his Brotherhood base, and on the other by an over-riding need to keep the military onside, Morsi's decisions inflamed his political opponents and managed to alienate many of the masses who had voted him into power. Perversely, the military coup was welcomed by those who claim to support the democratic process and denounced by the MB and its few remaining allies. With so much blood spilled already and the inevitable prospect of more to come, it is difficult to see how either side can compromise. Will Egypt follow Syria into civil war? As things stand, the signs are not good. Denied access to power democratically won by an illegal military coup, and facing a military that has shown it will not stop at at any means to crush it, what other options does the MB still hold?

Generally, the demise of democracy was welcomed by the West, even if the West's leaders couldn't say it in so many words. The reaction of the Obama White House typifies this - refusing to denounce the coup as a "coup", while mouthing empty noises about the need to return to some vestige of democracy asap. Of course, everyone on the ground scornfully ignored the West's pathetic response.

Treated like village idiots by the Israelis. arming Al Quada-linked rebels in Syria, arming and supporting vicious despots in Saudi Arabia and other theocracies/monarchies, taking Iraq to the verge of civil war, acting belligerently towards Iran as punishment for (allegedly) daring to do what Israel has done for decades - develop nuclear weapons - without so much as a pip squeak of protest from the West, it is difficult to discern any coherence in US policy towards the region, if in fact there is a US policy at all. US irrelevance and impotence in the face a worsening situation across the region is the inevitable price the US pays for slavishly following Israeli dictates instead of developing a policy that suits US interests.

My greatest fear is that Arabs will conclude that democracy holds nothing for them, forcing them into more extreme positions, reviving AQ from its death bed and restoring AQ as a force to reckoned with in the Arab world. But after the tragic events in Egypt, and the ongoing punishment inflicted on Gazans for exercising their democratic choices, on what basis can we ask Arabs and Muslims to trust the ballot box in future?

When you speak of Muslims are you talking about AQ and the MB?
I hope you are separating extremists from mainstream Muslims.
Thanks for giving us something to think about.

More questions than answers, but everyone in the world is going to be effected, at some point down the road.

The 'Arab Spring' showed us clearly that overwhelmingly Arabs and Muslims in the region prefer democracy over AQ-type extremism.

It is helpful to differentiate between the MB and AQ-type extremists. In Egypt, the party closest to AQ is the Salafi party, not the MB which has charted a more moderate course for decades. My concern is that the events in Egypt will force Arabs and Muslims into the arms of extremists. I'm sorry if that wasn't crystal clear in my post.

My concluding question remains valid: The West punishes Arabs for exercising their democratic choices. The US finances the Egyptian military to the tune of over a billion $ a year - not because the US is interested in Egyptian prosperity but as a bribe to neutralise Egyptian opposition to Israel. Arabs have good grounds for concluding that democracy is only allowed on the condition that democratic 'choices' are pro-Western. So on what basis can we ask them to trust their future to democracy when we punish them for making democratic choices?

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

how are you getting hurt?

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

None so blind as those that will not see. I dont realise so many people were this gullible, the idea anyone could take part in an Islamist march with a tee shirt picturing President Obama on it is risible.

Aside from just having some good clean fun by throwing gratuitous insults at people, what exactly are you claiming? That the photo is faked? That it's not a photo of Muslim Brotherhood supporters? What?

K.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

None so blind as those that will not see. I dont realise so many people were this gullible, the idea anyone could take part in an Islamist march with a tee shirt picturing President Obama on it is risible.

Aside from just having some good clean fun by throwing gratuitous insults at people, what exactly are you claiming? That the photo is faked? That it's not a photo of Muslim Brotherhood supporters? What?

That only an idiot would think its a photo of your President. Wasnt I clear enough for you ?

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

None so blind as those that will not see. I dont realise so many people were this gullible, the idea anyone could take part in an Islamist march with a tee shirt picturing President Obama on it is risible.

Aside from just having some good clean fun by throwing gratuitous insults at people, what exactly are you claiming? That the photo is faked? That it's not a photo of Muslim Brotherhood supporters? What?

That only an idiot would think its a photo of your President. Wasnt I clear enough for you ?

Oh, I got that you were calling people idiots. You do that a lot. It's kinda endearing, in a pathetic sorta way. But yeah, I do kinda think that looks like Obama. And there are lots of reasons why an Islamist in Egypt would wear an Obama tshirt. He supported Morsi. He's called for his release. In fact, his hypocrisy pisses off the majority of Egyptians quite royally. Here's a nice read, in case you'd like to find out what's happening down here on planet Earth. You should be able to manage it. I don't think any of the words are too long. 


K.

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We often agree Marini...but not here. This mess must be settled by Egypt and Egypt alone. If outside countries pick a side or even try to get between the two sides then there will only be a delay of the showdown. All we will get out of an intervention is hate by both and money down the drain and perhaps more American deaths.

We need to learn to stay out of other countries business unless they directly affect our security....We are responsible for our government and they must be for theirs... We cannot force peace and expect both sides to compromise their principles.

Butch

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Did you read what I said?

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Yes...you don't understand what I am saying... I don't think the United States should interfere at all... alone OR with many countries... No one should interfere in their business.

When outsiders stick their noses in civil wars in the long run more people die...we need to let them work it out. If we don't like the result then we will have to change how we deal with Egypt.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am curious what do we have to loose?

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It's very upsetting and unsettling. The NYT had a compelling piece today about how Western Diplomats failed to prevent the violence as their advice and proposals went ignored by the Prime Minister and Generals. The problems in Egypt also highlight US failures in IRAQ and Afghanistan. We just have not helped create a more stable Middle East despite spending a Trillion Dollars on operations there.

What's happening in Egypt also reminds me of what happened after we "won" the Cold War. After we won, we had no idea how to help the Russia transition to a more Western style form of government, so the democratic experiment there backslid into Putinism.