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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take Limelight by NPR STAFF August 17, 2013 4:47 PM Li


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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take Limelight by NPR STAFF August 17, 2013 4:47 PM Li Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 11:00:24 AM   
pahunkboy


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When Ross Perot was in the debates in the 90s the rules were changed to make it harder.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 11:10:06 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That wouldn't be the result of telling the rabid idiots to fuck off and form their own party, then?

That's just it. You can tell the rabid idiots to fuck off but they want control of one of the two parties because that's where the votes are. At this point, I'd be happy if they'd just shut up for a few elections.

They're not sadly, and if the Republicans can't get rid of them, the harm they're causing that party is only going to get worse from here on in.

Not unless there's a new genesis of reborn Christian millionaires created in the next few years.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 11:47:40 AM   
njlauren


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The GOP has a big problem, in the last 30 years they abandoned traditional GOP values, which used to be fiscal conservatism, moderate views on regulation, and libertarian to moderate social views. The traditional GOP realized there were problems that needed to be solved, but for the most part objected to the idea that government could solve all problems (but realized it could do some things), it was a lot more balanced. What happened to the GOP is that they fell prey to a common malady, that if you tap into anger, into the extremes, it can help you come into power. The GOP in order to regain power, catered to the extremes, the religious right whose views are way, way out of the mainstream, to the extreme right wing/racism of the John Birch types, the pseudo populism of the rural/farm belt, you name it, and it worked, they went hard right, and it helped them win elections, in part thanks to the nature of the election process (the electoral system, redistricting). What was once the fringe that people like Buckley and Goldwater called the loony right (and feared), won out, the anti intellectual, anti compromise, I know right and you don't mentality, that gave us Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman and the like. It even showed with a candidate like Mitt Romney, who in many ways was a pretty mainstream GOP candidate, who figured he had to go hard right to please 'the base'.

I don't think the GOP is going to learn the lesson, they have had major studies of the problems with their positions, they have had major figures like Jeb Bush and Bobby Jindal (not exactly the height of reasons), come out and tell them they are doing the wrong thing catering to the extremes, and yet those running the party keep promoting the idea that what the party needs to do is go more hard right, put up a 'real' conservative. They don't see polls that show only their base thinks the GOP congressmen are doing the right thing, they don't see that among young people, the extremism of the GOP has turned them off.

The problem with libertarians in the GOP is that the ones they have might go over well locally, but they are too extreme as well, what is lacking is pragmatism. Pure libertarianism is about as workable as 'pure' capitalism or pure anything, and the idea that somehow most people in the US are extreme conservatives is not reality.

If you want to see the problem with the GOP, take a look at what just happened in North Carolina. The GOP has taken over the legislature and governor's office, primarily because of economic issues, and then what happened? You got it, the extreme social focus, going after abortion and numerous other darlings of the hard right, and people there aren't happy. More importantly, this is getting national attention, and it is further alienating people. What is worse is candidates who otherwise understand, shift themselves hard right to cater to the idiots, and it torches them in the general elections.

I live in an area of NJ that is very republican, local governments are mostly GOP (I mean single party control), yet in voting for national elections, the GOP candidates are down to something like 55%, from where they used to get well over 80%, and in Senate elections my county gives democratic candidates strong support as well. The GOP on a national level is seen as out of touch, my next door neighbor is a lifelong republican, and he thinks the GOP has become the party of crackpot economics and social issue crackpots, as well as the party of extreme positions that he doesn't recognize.
What is worse is that as a Catholic, he finds the anti poor attitude of the party,the whole Ayn Rand idea that people who are poor are that way because they are lazy or that somehow there is this big group of people living off the government, when he knows a lot of those bitching, especially in the red states, get a ton of money from the federal government, and recognized that for example Romney calling for increased defense spending was primarily pork to the red states where the defense industry means jobs.

They have to become a party that has ideas, and they cannot keep proclaiming themselves to be the party of reactionary conservatism, it may fly in the bible belt and rural areas in general, but it is killing them on the national stage. Their demographics are basically a disaster area, they are now primarily the party of the extreme right wing well off (Trevor Norquist and the Koch Brothers)who believe because they are rich they shouldn't pay taxes, and the rural, older, white voters who want to put the country back to what they knew, and it isn't going to work much longer. Among other things, for the first time, diversity is not just happening in the cities and burbs, it is happening all over the country, and gerrymandering and election tricks are going to stop working. Worse, they have turned off a key constituency, they have turned off suburban middle and upper middle income people and they have turned off large majorities of young people, who care about the economy and jobs and don't share the view of the religious right or those afraid of diversity.

It is sad, because there are people in the GOP who know better, who have ideas I think might have traction. Figuring out tax policy that both cuts the load of taxation and the incredibly complex laws is not a bad thing, as long as they don't shift the burden on the middle class to cut the load on the well off, which is one of the problem with many of the flat tax/simple tax plans. It also is in recognizing that you cannot promote the idea of cutting government spending and 'getting people off the dole' while continuing to support farm bills and increased defense spending because they are politically important to their base. Mitch McConnell yells about high tax states being able to deduct state and local taxes, but yet his district gets huge plums from the federal government, including TVA generated power done at cost (I find it interesting that the GOP who claims we should privatize everything, has not made a big point selling off federal power generation to private power companies, raising money to pay down federal debt, and it isn't hard to see why, McConnel knows without cheap power and other federal programs, his region would not have a lot of the economic boom they have seen with auto makers and the like). They rail about 'welfare' to other states, when their states get a lot more back then they pay in, as compared to other states that get back very little comparatively. The biggest thing they haven't done is show leadership, their whole platform is negative, they say no to what Obama wants to do, but offer nothing in return. They are against obamacare, but offer nothing other than keeping the status quo or worse, say medical care isn't a right and if you need it, you better be able to pay for it (the best had to be Rick Santorum, who said emergency rooms are always there for care.........which is part of the problem with the current system). "Killing the federal government" like the tea party advocates is not a solution (among other things, it is obvious tea party types can't read the federal budget), they need to offer real, credible plans and not offer something like the Ryan plan that slashed government spending on social programs while leaving entitlements like farm subsidies, defense and the major entitlements like medicare untouched, you can't do that either, or propose tax policies that benefit the top 1% while putting more of a burden on the middle and upper middle class.

I really hope the GOP can figure this out, because we need real ideas out there, but it also takes willingness to listen to what others are saying and compromise. Believing that the entire country is like Cobb County, Georgia or like rural Texas is a big mistake..I think it is going to take at least 1 more election where they lose the national election for change to happen.
.

(in reply to BislaveHaylee)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 11:51:54 AM   
Moonhead


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Those are facts, though: do you think the sort of Republican voter who thinks that Bush and Jindal are wet lefties and ACORN was set up to steal and murder Christian babies so that they won't grow up to vote in eighteen years' time give a shit about facts?

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to njlauren)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 12:56:42 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I do sometimes wonder how any alleged Libertarian can bear to vote for somebody who's standing for a Federal office, now that you mention that one.

I am not wondering why.

All libertarians believe what this country originally believed...we form govt. as an evil necessity. At a very early point, that means voting for somebody for some federal office.

Libertarianism is hardly anarchy as some would like to paint it. Hell, I voted libertarian for pres. in 1992 rather than slick Willie. I knew Clinton would, so I wanted to see if a liber. pres....would play ball.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 5:08:56 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Those are facts, though: do you think the sort of Republican voter who thinks that Bush and Jindal are wet lefties and ACORN was set up to steal and murder Christian babies so that they won't grow up to vote in eighteen years' time give a shit about facts?


The real question is when the power brokers realize going after that kind of voter is a losing proposition, that going after haters and no-nothings and the like is a losing proposition. This is especially true among the money that is the real power, how long will corporations and the well off tolerate the GOP catering to the religious right and the know nothings and such. Among other things, if the GOP can't deliver the white house, or if the pseudo populist types with their knee jerk hatred of banks and finance or education cause the problems, you will see a shift. Ultimately if the GOP becomes a regional party of the deep south and the farm belt, you can bet the powers will end up having to change, or face the party going the route of the whigs.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 5:13:35 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I do sometimes wonder how any alleged Libertarian can bear to vote for somebody who's standing for a Federal office, now that you mention that one.

I am not wondering why.

All libertarians believe what this country originally believed...we form govt. as an evil necessity. At a very early point, that means voting for somebody for some federal office.

Libertarianism is hardly anarchy as some would like to paint it. Hell, I voted libertarian for pres. in 1992 rather than slick Willie. I knew Clinton would, so I wanted to see if a liber. pres....would play ball.



The reality of libertarianism is that true libertarianism is like anarchism, in the sense that neither in its pure form can work. A true libertarian state is one which everything is based in individualism and there is no 'we', it basically says I can do what I want and to hell with everyone else, and it doesn't work. True libertarianism would doom universal education, because libertarians argue having schools or having to go to school violates individual freedom (i.e a parent who didn't want their kid educated) or in having to pay taxes to support it. Libertarianism in practice recognizes that a world based only on individual freedom and determinism simply won't work in a complex world, and looks at things on the basis of what is practical.

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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/18/2013 8:58:02 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

true libertarianism is like anarchism


No it isnt. That is a stretch.

(in reply to njlauren)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 6:02:48 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I do sometimes wonder how any alleged Libertarian can bear to vote for somebody who's standing for a Federal office, now that you mention that one.

I am not wondering why.
All libertarians believe what this country originally believed...we form govt. as an evil necessity. At a very early point, that means voting for somebody for some federal office.
Libertarianism is hardly anarchy as some would like to paint it. Hell, I voted libertarian for pres. in 1992 rather than slick Willie. I knew Clinton would, so I wanted to see if a liber. pres....would play ball.

The reality of libertarianism is that true libertarianism is like anarchism, in the sense that neither in its pure form can work. A true libertarian state is one which everything is based in individualism and there is no 'we', it basically says I can do what I want and to hell with everyone else, and it doesn't work. True libertarianism would doom universal education, because libertarians argue having schools or having to go to school violates individual freedom (i.e a parent who didn't want their kid educated) or in having to pay taxes to support it. Libertarianism in practice recognizes that a world based only on individual freedom and determinism simply won't work in a complex world, and looks at things on the basis of what is practical.


You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Libertarianism. "Small government" does not mean "no government." Libertarians know there is a need for government and taxes (to pay for government). Libertarians are Classical Liberals, and want limited government, fiscal conservatism, and social freedom. Yes, the individual is the most important political subdivision, but that's where all political powers start. The individual is to have all the power in the absence of government (that is supposed to act with the consent of the governed) and gives up some of that to the local government. Each level of government takes a little bit of power from the individual and from the levels of government below it. The Federal Government was a compact between the States and the people.

The way the US is run now, all power pretty much starts in DC and filters down to the Citizen. That's simply wrong, according to Libertarianism.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to njlauren)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 11:46:38 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Libertarianism. "Small government" does not mean "no government." Libertarians know there is a need for government and taxes (to pay for government).

No offensive, but that sounds fuck all like most of the "Libertarians" you see blathering about how they resent paying taxes so that the Feds can feed people who are too lazy to work, and threatening to "go Galt" all over the internet.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 11:49:58 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Libertarianism. "Small government" does not mean "no government." Libertarians know there is a need for government and taxes (to pay for government).

No offensive, but that sounds fuck all like most of the "Libertarians" you see blathering about how they resent paying taxes so that the Feds can feed people who are too lazy to work, and threatening to "go Galt" all over the internet.

I'd say that about the same percentage of "Libertarians" in the internet who know fuckall about libertarianism is probably similar to the percentage of 'Dominants' on the net who would have a fucking clue to do if a woman were to actually kneel in front of them.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 11:51:53 AM   
Moonhead


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Sadly, that isn't just the internet: you have these clowns all over the media and stinking up the Senate in both parties as well, don't you?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 11:52:43 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Sadly, that isn't just the internet: you have these clowns all over the media and stinking up the Senate in both parties as well, don't you?

You also have clowns showing up and munches and play parties too.

Were you deliberately missing the point?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 12:00:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Libertarianism. "Small government" does not mean "no government." Libertarians know there is a need for government and taxes (to pay for government).

No offensive, but that sounds fuck all like most of the "Libertarians" you see blathering about how they resent paying taxes so that the Feds can feed people who are too lazy to work, and threatening to "go Galt" all over the internet.


I do not control the interpretations of what other people say or do, nor do I control the mis-interpretations of what I write.

A Socialist can call himself/herself a Capitalist all he/she wants. But, under that facade, you still have a Socialist, no?

Hill, actions speak louder than words, or nametags. Most Dommabees will eventually, by their own actions, be shown for what they truly are. Huh. That works for politicians, too.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Amid Struggle For 'Soul' Of GOP, Libertarians Take ... - 8/19/2013 12:01:21 PM   
Moonhead


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Nope. It's just that I've never seen any working definition of a "weal and twue" Libertarian besides: "it ain't that lot over there who are getting us proper Libertarians a bad name."
A line which, it must be admitted, is often used by people who think that the whole of the American left are Marxists who want to collectivise your property and confiscate your gun. There's something a bit pathetic about people who are happy to generalise everybody else getting sniffy about being generalised themselves, isn't there?


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 35
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