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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 8:09:41 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Of course there are other factors involved. Such as why do kids grow up with such a contemptuous attitude to human life? Why are their horizons so hopeless that murder seems like a fun way to pass a few idle moments......
But for goodness sake, stop deluding yourself that there is no relationship between availability of weapons and your horrendous murder rate

There may be a relationship, Tweaks, but it isn't causative.

Please excuse my language but so fucking what?

So, basing policy on a non-causative relationship is - don't feel the need to excuse my language - fucking stupid.

quote:

quote:

quote:

If those idiots didn't have such easy access to lethal weapons, they most probably would have found something far less murderous to do.

Didn't you just say that we have no way of knowing? Now, you are assigning probability to what they would have done?

Yes DS, one assigns probability when one doesn't know outcomes for certain. Or, as far as I know, that's what sensible people do.

Well, then, care to defend that probability declaration? Or, was it just something pulled out of your ass?

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 8:20:10 AM

kdsub

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quote:

Not all conservatives share the US's looney right's views on gun control

That doesn't say much considering just the pro gun adult population in the US is conservatively 7 times the total population of Australia. Despite what you believe they are not all as looney as one Australian I know.

I am making fun of your outrageous statements because this killing has nothing to do with gun control.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/21/2013 8:26:48 AM >

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 8:42:36 AM

tazzygirl

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~FR

My prayers with this young man's family.

I cant help but wonder if these teens had only knives, and they actually had to get physical with someone, and it wasnt "easy" to drive by and shoot someone... would someone have really died? True, they could have run him over, they had the car... but that would have required more time and the possibility of not getting away with it.

Do bored young men with guns = bored young men without guns?

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 9:03:35 AM

kdsub

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tazzy gun control does not mean all guns confiscated... I am also for gun control but I do agree with many conservatives, and liberal gun owners alike, that illegal guns will always be available through theft or second party buying to criminals as long as we have the 2nd amendment in this country..

The gun control proposed by Obama would not have stopped this tragedy. It just pisses me off when uninformed outsiders presume to know the mindset of Americans when it comes to gun ownership. Tweak seems to think only conservatives are for the 2nd Amendment and her constant ranting against one part of the political spectrum is just displaying her ignorance.

If it were possible in the US to have gun laws like the UK I would be for them... but that will not happen in the US with our Constitution.

I am all for discussing the lifestyle and environmental circumstances of these children that led to them murdering an innocent...but blaming it on gun control is wrong...in my opinion.

Guns do NOT make this country violent...I agree they are a way to make this violence more deadly but not the cause and removing them is not the solution.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/21/2013 9:23:55 AM >

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 9:38:27 AM

RottenJohnny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Just to let you know this is the response to this senseless slaying from a widely respected conservative ex-politician :

"Tim Fischer, who served as deputy prime minister under John Howard from 1996 to 1999, urged Australians not to travel to the United States. He said that such a boycott would send a message about the need for tighter gun control regulations in the United States, according to News.com.au.

"I am deeply angry about this because of the callous attitude of the three teenagers (but) it's a sign of the proliferation of guns on the ground in the USA," Fischer said this week. "This is the bitter harvest and legacy of the policies of the NRA..."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/tim-fischer-boycott-us-christopher-lane_n_3786687.html

Not all conservatives share the US's looney right's views on gun control.

The difference between the reaction here in Australia to this murder, and the (non-)reaction in the USA is telling. Some countries see the victims of senseless slayings as something more than collateral damage in the war to preserve the public's 'right' to shoot whoever upsets them at any given point in time. In some places, people try to find ways to prevent further senseless slayings.

While this event is unquestionably tragic, the thoughts of an ex-politician in another country are entirely irrelevant to the case. Any boycott by Australians is going to go completely unnoticed. These kids have been caught, they'll have their day in court, and most likely go to jail for a very long time.

But if you need to know what else may have triggered these kids then consider their ages. In this country, being a minor prevents you, in many cases, from being penalized the same as an adult for a similar crime. I've known that fact to be at the heart of many crimes minors commit. I don't know if it applies here but it might. Fortunately, they've already decided to treat them as adults which hopefully leads them to a death penalty as far as I'm concerned.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 9:52:06 AM

tazzygirl

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I am not advocating gun control... it simply doesnt work... I do believe in gun responsibility.. and if we insisted responsibility become the norm, I think we would have less of these issues.

Nor did I say these kids.. referring to age... would not be less violent. I have to wonder about the balls everyone seems to think they have. I dont buy into that. Its far easier to shoot someone from a distance than to have to go face to face to kill someone.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 10:02:31 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Of course there are other factors involved. Such as why do kids grow up with such a contemptuous attitude to human life? Why are their horizons so hopeless that murder seems like a fun way to pass a few idle moments......
But for goodness sake, stop deluding yourself that there is no relationship between availability of weapons and your horrendous murder rate

There may be a relationship, Tweaks, but it isn't causative.

Why do you assume this? Sure, the wide availability of guns doesn't cause most gun owners to kill - but what makes you take it so much for granted that it isn't a causal factor behind the murderous actions of the minority?

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 10:24:29 AM

igor2003

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Neither you nor anyone else knows what those kids might have done if they didn't have access to guns. If you or anyone else knew what is inside their heads, why wasn't it prevented? They might have gotten knives and killed someone anyway or they might have gone ten pin bowling or they might have gotten stoned. They might have done any one of a million things that bored kids do. No one knows.

In one article I read, one of the kids stated that at least one reason for shooting the guy was so they could "make a name for themselves." You don't make a name for yourself by going bowling or getting stoned.

quote:

A good place to start would be to review operating the world's biggest laxest private arms bazaar and then pretending that the consequences are inevitable and beyond your control. Why not give gun control a trial in one State for a 3 or 5 year period and then see what the results are? Until this is tried, such sentiments as the above will remain specious infuriating platitudes.

Different states already have varying degrees of gun control, and as a general rule, the states with the tightest gun control seem to have the most gun violence. But let's assume it was decided to use one state as a test state for your idea...how do you propose to decide which state it should be and exactly how would you even begin to make it work?

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 11:27:43 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Of course there are other factors involved. Such as why do kids grow up with such a contemptuous attitude to human life? Why are their horizons so hopeless that murder seems like a fun way to pass a few idle moments......
But for goodness sake, stop deluding yourself that there is no relationship between availability of weapons and your horrendous murder rate

There may be a relationship, Tweaks, but it isn't causative.

Why do you assume this? Sure, the wide availability of guns doesn't cause most gun owners to kill - but what makes you take it so much for granted that it isn't a causal factor behind the murderous actions of the minority?

Because there is still the underlying mentality behind taking someone's life that's there regardless of weapon.

NIJ link

467,321 people were victims of a crime involving a gun in 2011.

FBI Violent Crime Table 1992-2011

1.2M violent crimes

Roughly 40% of all violent crimes in 2011 involved a gun.

FBI Offense Analysis 2007-2011

14,612 murders in 2011

FBI Murder Victim Table 8

12,664 homicides (intentional) in 2011
8,583 homicides committed with a gun in 2011
roughly 68% of all homicides are committed with a firearm

The number of guns that are owned by civilians in the US isn't going down, yet violent crime is going down. Odd, innit?

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 11:41:57 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Of course there are other factors involved. Such as why do kids grow up with such a contemptuous attitude to human life? Why are their horizons so hopeless that murder seems like a fun way to pass a few idle moments......

But for goodness sake, stop deluding yourself that there is no relationship between availability of weapons and your horrendous murder rate

If those idiots didn't have such easy access to lethal weapons, they most probably would have found something far less murderous to do. I don't get the impression that planning ways past sound security systems to obtain weapons is their forte.

My understanding is that everyone in cuba is armed and their murder rate is dramatically less than the u.s..

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 1:14:07 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Of course there are other factors involved. Such as why do kids grow up with such a contemptuous attitude to human life? Why are their horizons so hopeless that murder seems like a fun way to pass a few idle moments......

But for goodness sake, stop deluding yourself that there is no relationship between availability of weapons and your horrendous murder rate

If those idiots didn't have such easy access to lethal weapons, they most probably would have found something far less murderous to do. I don't get the impression that planning ways past sound security systems to obtain weapons is their forte.

None of them could legally own a handgun.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 1:15:48 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

My prayers with this young man's family.

I cant help but wonder if these teens had only knives, and they actually had to get physical with someone, and it wasnt "easy" to drive by and shoot someone... would someone have really died? True, they could have run him over, they had the car... but that would have required more time and the possibility of not getting away with it.

Do bored young men with guns = bored young men without guns?

They didn't get away with it.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 1:18:51 PM

tazzygirl

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I didnt say they did.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 6:06:04 PM

PeonForHer

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Your stats on gun crime don't address what I'm getting at, DS.

quote:

Because there is still the underlying mentality behind taking someone's life that's there regardless of weapon.

So, why is the widespread availability of guns to be eliminated at the outset as a causal factor in the growth of someone's desire to take a life? Does it make no sense at all that an angry and aggressive person who's brought up seeing death inflicted frequently, easily and 'glamorously' on the screen by firearms, who sees a gun shop every time he goes out, might be much more likely to have that aggression moulded into a murderous desire?

'Desires change according to the means of achieving them'. This is a principle that's as old as psychology itself. Yet the principle seems to have no place in debates about the availability of guns. When it comes to guns, the desire comes first, the deed follows from the desire, and that is 'self-evidently' that. It seems bizarre to me.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 6:12:07 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
My understanding is that everyone in cuba is armed and their murder rate is dramatically less than the u.s..

I don't think so, Thompson. See e.g.
http://www.examiner.com/article/cuba-s-forced-amnesty-demonstrates-tyrannical-intent-of-gun-control : Cuba is " . . . a state where almost no one except some active military personnel and plain-clothed state security agents are allowed to possess weapons."

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 7:01:55 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Your stats on gun crime don't address what I'm getting at, DS.

quote:

Because there is still the underlying mentality behind taking someone's life that's there regardless of weapon.

So, why is the widespread availability of guns to be eliminated at the outset as a causal factor in the growth of someone's desire to take a life? Does it make no sense at all that an angry and aggressive person who's brought up seeing death inflicted frequently, easily and 'glamorously' on the screen by firearms, who sees a gun shop every time he goes out, might be much more likely to have that aggression moulded into a murderous desire?
'Desires change according to the means of achieving them'. This is a principle that's as old as psychology itself. Yet the principle seems to have no place in debates about the availability of guns. When it comes to guns, the desire comes first, the deed follows from the desire, and that is 'self-evidently' that. It seems bizarre to me.

LOL

I do think the prevalence of guns leads to greater use of guns in crimes, but obviously not to the number of crimes, regardless of weapon. That is my point. 2/3 of our murders are done with a gun. I highly doubt that complete removal of guns from the Earth (that is, no gun is even available, so there can not be any gun crimes) would result in a 2/3 drop in the murder rate. It might cause a decrease overall, but there will be an increase in the number of murders via other weapons.

Guns are effective tools. That's why they are used. Increased gun regulations won't result in decreased use of guns in crimes. It's just such an effective tool.

The mentality behind being open to killing another human being is more troubling, imo.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 7:11:06 PM

BamaD

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True, they could have run him over, they had the car... but that would have required more time and the possibility of not getting away with it.

If they used a gun instead of because a car would have meant that there was a possibility of not getting away with it doesn't that meant that the gun eliminated that possibility?

Guess that isn't what you meant.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 7:20:45 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I'm not sure that it's a non-reaction in the USA, since this incident is being covered in the press and discussed. The sad fact is, most murders in this country tend to go unnoticed. Perhaps they might get a blurb in the local press but hardly a national issue, unless it's something outrageous or infamous or something that would get good ratings for the media.

Actually, the reason a lot of murders go un/under reported in the US is because so many of them are related to (drug trade-funded) gang activity, and the gang-bangers love seeing their exploits on the news. Coverage only encourages more of the same.

Something like this quite obviously breaks out of the mold, and a murder in Oklahoma made it promptly into my news feed out in California.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 7:47:50 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

True, they could have run him over, they had the car... but that would have required more time and the possibility of not getting away with it.

If they used a gun instead of because a car would have meant that there was a possibility of not getting away with it doesn't that meant that the gun eliminated that possibility?

Guess that isn't what you meant.

Not at all. Its far faster to speed down the road when you arent waiting to see if someone is dead from running them over with a car.

Think kids logic here.

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RE: Bored in Oklahoma - 8/21/2013 8:03:18 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

True, they could have run him over, they had the car... but that would have required more time and the possibility of not getting away with it.

If they used a gun instead of because a car would have meant that there was a possibility of not getting away with it doesn't that meant that the gun eliminated that possibility?

Guess that isn't what you meant.

Not at all. Its far faster to speed down the road when you arent waiting to see if someone is dead from running them over with a car.

Think kids logic here.

I have difficulty thinking like an idiot.

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