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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 8:42:04 AM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline 		Easily the most umbrella term in the whole world is "friendship"! One word is supposed to define a virtual infinity of different types of relationships. I have had the same best friend for exactly 30 years now; he is male and hetero, I am female and hetero, we've never had any sort of sexual relationship (even back in our partying days decades ago), and I can't imagine being closer and more intimate with anyone in my lifetime. Yet my relationship with him doesn't impinge on my being monogamous with men.

Maybe that "line" is internal and varies for each of us. What a lovely complication!

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 9:11:10 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
In real life most people taking on the M role understand ethics…

This presents ethics as if they are universally understood. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a set of ethics, outside of the most primal, that are applicable to all or interpreted in the same way by any given individual, dyad, or group. Even among the most basic ethics of any given society, you'll find variation in moral principles on the individual level.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
…and they understand their slave is a human being, not a piece of property.

Says who? Regardless, being human does not preclude being property in the eyes of those who have made a covenant to be master and slave.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
The entire point of monogamy is jealousy and possessiveness.


That is often a result of monogamy, but the evolutionary point of monogamy is mate guarding, not only to protect one's mate from mating with others, but to prevent the death of offspring.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 9:41:08 AM   
SerWhiteTiger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

The entire point of monogamy is jealousy and possessiveness.......


The narrowness of that point of view is so narrow... I would be carefully not make any sudden turns as you might push your nose into a wall.




I agree.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 9:44:21 AM   
SerWhiteTiger


Posts: 437
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From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


That is often a result of monogamy, but the evolutionary point of monogamy is mate guarding, not only to protect one's mate from mating with others, but to prevent the death of offspring.


Evolutionary point? I'm of the opinion that it wasn't evolution at all but something that was conditioned on humanity by religion over the past few millennia. Monogamy is unnatural. That's why so-called monogamous people constantly cheat on each other. Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.

< Message edited by SerWhiteTiger -- 8/28/2013 9:45:14 AM >

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 9:47:58 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
. ...... Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.


Maybe monogamy is the societal human version of the same.

I don't believe most couples cheat, either.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 10:25:15 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:


Evolutionary point? I'm of the opinion that it wasn't evolution at all but something that was conditioned on humanity by religion over the past few millennia. Monogamy is unnatural. That's why so-called monogamous people constantly cheat on each other. Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.

Completely disagree this is why people cheat. Cheating is generally due to a break in intimacy and not having the tools, strength, or ethics to fix it. There was a whole rather passionate thread about that recently in Off Topics, so lets not totally derail this thread with it. I know of cheaters who justify it by saying monogamy is unnatural though.

There is no universal "natural" orientation, in my opinion (poly, mono, straight, gay, dominant, submissive, etc.). You risk sliding down a very slippery slope when you go there. Recognize who and what YOU (general) are, and be true to that.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 10:54:33 AM   
SerWhiteTiger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:


Evolutionary point? I'm of the opinion that it wasn't evolution at all but something that was conditioned on humanity by religion over the past few millennia. Monogamy is unnatural. That's why so-called monogamous people constantly cheat on each other. Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.

Completely disagree this is why people cheat. Cheating is generally due to a break in intimacy and not having the tools, strength, or ethics to fix it. There was a whole rather passionate thread about that recently in Off Topics, so lets not totally derail this thread with it. I know of cheaters who justify it by saying monogamy is unnatural though.

There is no universal "natural" orientation, in my opinion (poly, mono, straight, gay, dominant, submissive, etc.). You risk sliding down a very slippery slope when you go there. Recognize who and what YOU (general) are, and be true to that.


I agree with all of this.

The cognitive dissonance is strong in me.

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Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 11:03:07 AM   
SerWhiteTiger


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline 		I've figured out the point I've been trying to make though...

Focusing on true negatives is the essence of intolerance.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 11:13:26 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:


Evolutionary point? I'm of the opinion that it wasn't evolution at all but something that was conditioned on humanity by religion over the past few millennia. Monogamy is unnatural. That's why so-called monogamous people constantly cheat on each other. Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.

Completely disagree this is why people cheat. Cheating is generally due to a break in intimacy and not having the tools, strength, or ethics to fix it. There was a whole rather passionate thread about that recently in Off Topics, so lets not totally derail this thread with it. I know of cheaters who justify it by saying monogamy is unnatural though.

There is no universal "natural" orientation, in my opinion (poly, mono, straight, gay, dominant, submissive, etc.). You risk sliding down a very slippery slope when you go there. Recognize who and what YOU (general) are, and be true to that.


I agree with all of this.

The cognitive dissonance is strong in me.

So you no longer think monogamy is unnatural? I'm confused because you said it's unnatural and then agreed with me when I disagreed with that.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 11:17:35 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss
I have no problem with open relationships. I think those have the best chance of survival when everyone is on board. Like Chatte and LP...who have a primary relationship and then each primary has another single.... They are open but, in reality, each is its own dynamic that only has 2 people. The ones I am leery of and would not work for me are the "triad". Everyone involved with everyone whether it is a D/D/s or a D/s/s- would never work for me and, honestly, from what I have seen, long term success is usually when there is some other common thread. Religion -everyone believes that this is God's will and all are devout to the religion so they overcome other issues. Society-places where women are limited in rights and must have a male to allow them travel, jobs...especially places like Iran and Iraq where after the 8 year war that killed off a majority of the young, marriageable men...some men took 2nd and 3rd wives for no other reason than as a charitable act.

I respect those who can have a poly life. I wish I could see it for myself because I think, on the surface, it looks great (raising kids together, sharing household duties...like "Big Love")...but I know myself and I know reality and it is not something I could do or could believe would work for and make me happy.

Yet, by definition, what you are describing isn't an open relationship. It's poly.

Having a polyamorous lifestyle isn't all about the triads. If that was the only option, I probably wouldn't be poly because I'm extremely adamant in My position about the primary relationship coming first. For some people that works and for other people, it doesn't. While what is known as "O" type poly, where everyone is connected tends to be what folks think of when they hear the word, there's just as much to be said for "V" type poly, where one person has two relationships and those two other parties aren't especially linked. When you sited the example of "Big Love" (I used to really enjoy that show, too) you were really talking about a situation that was other than triad, and what some have called "spoke of the wheel" poly, because there was only one pivotal point for the "family" coming together, and that was the male character of the show.

I skimmed the bulk of the thread since I was on it last and I think I see things differently than some other folks. First of all, I don't consider a person leaving the household as being not successful at poly. I've seen terms like three years, five years, etc. Under the same roof as opposed to living apart, so on and so on. I look at the whole thing differently. MP and I have embarked on poly for almost nine years now and I measure our success in our primary relationship. For what it's worth, I could *never* do the things that I do without his love and support.






_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 11:40:01 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for the compliment but I consider it responsible ownership. A long term illness can already adversely effect things in someone, which it had, but to add even more to make the psychological and emotional issues worse would be akin to having someone continue to use a broken limb normally.

It is also an example of why I have considered poly very seriously. Could you imagine having to be responsible for two slaves in that situation? It would not be pleasing or good for anyone involved.

We have spoken about poly for another girl to join the household, but I doubt there is anyone that could meet the qualifications, and the situation would have to be something good for all involved. That has nothing to do with negotiation with my current girl, but just common sense to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
My girl was very sick for about a year and was speaking with me about bringing in another because she felt she could not do everything I wanted to be pleased. I told her that the damage to her self esteem would not please me and my dick did not rule my household.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

I realize that most guys are drawn to polyamory because they just want to fuck around and cheat see it as an excuse to do so. It's the same with women, although they're less transparent about it.





Awww, that is beautiful. What a man WHAT A MAN! That's the definition of loving right there.


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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 11:56:05 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

I'm of the opinion that it wasn't evolution at all but something that was conditioned on humanity by religion over the past few millennia. Monogamy is unnatural. That's why so-called monogamous people constantly cheat on each other. Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.


If religious practice (which is also an arguably natural human thing) actually conditioned the human animal to be monogamous, that could be seen as an evolutionary influence as well, albeit in terms of a feedback loop. That aside, monogamy, polygyny, and polyandry are all (obviously) natural in humans. One need not preclude the other in terms of instinctual behaviors or "legitimate" human mating drives. Where monogamy is concerned, I would direct you to any one of many evolutionary science papers discussing the theorized origins of mate guarding/retention, which has possibly given rise to widespread monogamous practices in humans. This paper, touches on the theory, which seems fairly plausible.


_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 12:19:56 PM   
SerWhiteTiger


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:


Evolutionary point? I'm of the opinion that it wasn't evolution at all but something that was conditioned on humanity by religion over the past few millennia. Monogamy is unnatural. That's why so-called monogamous people constantly cheat on each other. Of course, natural is for the strongest male to kill, drive off or dominate the other males into submission, and that's not exactly healthy.

Completely disagree this is why people cheat. Cheating is generally due to a break in intimacy and not having the tools, strength, or ethics to fix it. There was a whole rather passionate thread about that recently in Off Topics, so lets not totally derail this thread with it. I know of cheaters who justify it by saying monogamy is unnatural though.

There is no universal "natural" orientation, in my opinion (poly, mono, straight, gay, dominant, submissive, etc.). You risk sliding down a very slippery slope when you go there. Recognize who and what YOU (general) are, and be true to that.


I agree with all of this.

The cognitive dissonance is strong in me.

So you no longer think monogamy is unnatural? I'm confused because you said it's unnatural and then agreed with me when I disagreed with that.


Cognitive dissonance is when a person believes two contradictory things. We all do it, it's a fundamental part of the defense mechanisms the human brain uses to maintain sanity. Sanity through insanity.

I need to think more about why I believe two contradictory things. :)

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 1:47:20 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

In a world where abusive wife beaters consider themselves BDSM and everyone accepts their identification as such, what percentage of BDSM relationships would be long lasting and happy?


You have now mentioned this twice. Where are you getting this thing about abusive wife beaters considering themselves BDSM and who accepts that as such? Huh?

Also, you compared being gay with polyamory and I do not believe you have a choice in being gay. You do have a choice to be poly; at least whether you act upon it or not. Not comparable in the least.

Also, if you find that Collarme is not indicative of BDSM in general, why are you on the site? Collarme and sites like it are a microcosm, not the whole universe of BDSM.


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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 2:53:40 PM   
SerWhiteTiger


Posts: 437
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From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

In a world where abusive wife beaters consider themselves BDSM and everyone accepts their identification as such, what percentage of BDSM relationships would be long lasting and happy?


You have now mentioned this twice. Where are you getting this thing about abusive wife beaters considering themselves BDSM and who accepts that as such? Huh?

Also, you compared being gay with polyamory and I do not believe you have a choice in being gay. You do have a choice to be poly; at least whether you act upon it or not. Not comparable in the least.

Also, if you find that Collarme is not indicative of BDSM in general, why are you on the site? Collarme and sites like it are a microcosm, not the whole universe of BDSM.




I'm not saying that's how things are, I'm using that as an analogy for how some people are talking about polyamory in this thread. People who use polyamory to find a new partner disgust me, but they're not only getting lumped into polyamory in this thread but treated as the prime example of polyamory.

Also, you contradicted yourself there. Of course you do not have a choice on whether to be gay or whether to be poly. And you have a choice on how you act on either one. Neither one should be made to feel like they shouldn't act on how they feel with responsible, consenting adults. They certainly shouldn't be made to feel like maybe they should be in the closet, but as a newbie to this forum, that's exactly how a lot of the posts in this thread make me feel. Of course, it's easy to think it's okay to make people feel that way when you've got other people slapping you on the back and agreeing.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 5:05:08 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
I'm not saying that's how things are, I'm using that as an analogy for how some people are talking about polyamory in this thread. People who use polyamory to find a new partner disgust me, but they're not only getting lumped into polyamory in this thread but treated as the prime example of polyamory.

Also, you contradicted yourself there. Of course you do not have a choice on whether to be gay or whether to be poly. And you have a choice on how you act on either one. Neither one should be made to feel like they shouldn't act on how they feel with responsible, consenting adults. They certainly shouldn't be made to feel like maybe they should be in the closet, but as a newbie to this forum, that's exactly how a lot of the posts in this thread make me feel. Of course, it's easy to think it's okay to make people feel that way when you've got other people slapping you on the back and agreeing.

OK. I'm getting your point here, but I don't think you are making it very well. Yes, there are folks out there who use the label "poly" to justify chasing tail just the same as some abusive people hide under the BDSM label. There aren't any of these terms that people can't use in unhealthy ways and have it be the same term that other folks are using in healthy ones. There are at least a couple of us on this thread who could tell some really good stories about terms that folks used to excuse their behaviors and the fall out from those situations.

Speaking as somebody who considers herself both poly optional and kink optional, I really don't think it's the same as being gay. For some it might be but I don't think it's universal. I happen to be one of those folks who can be just as happy in a monogamous relationship as I can when I'm poly. Same goes for the kink. I could stop engaging in BDSM tomorrow and My biggest disappointment would be missing My toy collection.

I've had a suspicion for quite some time that folks who engage in ethical poly have a very strong dislike of being lumped in with folks who aren't exactly ethical in having multiple relationships. I think some of the posts on this thread have been reflective of that.





_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 6:11:50 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I just don't have the energy for more than one person. It would exhaust me. Even when my daughter was still young and I was dating Master, I would get so very tired from giving attention to both of them. It's another reason why I only had one child. I knew I wouldn't have the patience or energy for more than one. Then again, I'm also the type who can only be around people for so long before I need to get away from everyone and just crash. My body and mind just start to hurt.

My mental abilities just don't extend that far.


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Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 7:39:43 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
The entire point of monogamy is jealousy and possessiveness.

Wow really? Whodathunkit? Do you have any idea how jacked up and offensive that statement was.

Dude, I'm struggling to say this in a way which does not earn me a gold letter. I try not to keep the mods too busy. But you are blatantly ignorant of that which you speak. There is no "point" to monogamy for me. I find a woman. I bond with her. I no longer see other women as "possible mates". Nobody is making me be monogamous. Nobody really could make me do that (you know, that whole "dominant" word that gets tossed around here so frequently).

You can believe whatever jacked up things you want about monogamous folks but really it's just your your lack of understanding and empathy thinking of anyone who is "not you" as "defective".


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 8:46:10 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
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_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/28/2013 8:59:25 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


Yeah, I thought about writing the converse statement, "The entire point of polygamy is..." but there was no way to do it that didn't deserve a gold letter.

But hey, out of curiosity, does Kana know that you are forcing him into monogamy? Because seriously, that just knocked him down a few dominance pegs in my book.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 200
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