RE: where has all the respect gone?

RE: where has all the respect gone? (Full Version)

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Najakcharmer -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (6/30/2006 9:12:19 PM)
Last I checked, consensuality was supposed to be a pretty important part of any D/s interaction. Being polite and courteous to others has nothing to do with your D/s role. That's just being a mature adult who knows how to behave themselves in public. Nor does basic courtesy have anything to do with anyone else's D/s role. It's not okay to act like an asshole no matter what the other person's sexual or kinky orientation is. It also isn't okay to expect someone to automatically act either dominant or submissive towards you just because you happen to have the opposite kinky orientation. You need to get consent before having a D/s exchange with a stranger, and that can't simply be assumed. Admonishing submissives to be more courteous towards dominants misses the point of what courtesy actually is. Part of being courteous and polite to a stranger is not jumping right in and acting out your sexuality with them right off the bat, but respecting them enough to obtain consent first. Insta-grovelling to everyone who happens to have a kinky orientation that interests you does not necessarily fall under the heading of courteous. There is nothing wrong with simply being polite to people whatever their sexual or D/s orientation, whether you are a dominant or a submissive. And there is no such thing as a sexual or kinky orientation that gives you the right to be rude or discourteous to others, so people who identify as dominants need this advice just as much (and in some cases considerably more) than people who identify as submissives.

SweetSarijane -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (6/30/2006 9:13:09 PM)
So very true and the same as I tend to do.

SweetSarijane -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (6/30/2006 9:18:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer There is nothing wrong with simply being polite to people whatever their sexual or D/s orientation, whether you are a dominant or a submissive. And there is no such thing as a sexual or kinky orientation that gives you the right to be rude or discourteous to others, so people who identify as dominants need this advice just as much (and in some cases considerably more) than people who identify as submissives. Thank you. Your whole post is so well worded and really makes strong points. It seems there is so much focus on submissives showing courtesy and respect and very little is said about Dominants doing the same. All are equal unless and until they enter an agreed dynamic.

feistykitten -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (6/30/2006 9:26:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tamerofwild1s OK ... I have read almost everyones post .... and I think I will add my OPINION when a slave or sub serves me I make it known I want her to address a Dom/me as Sir or Ma'am this is why .. her respect the she gives another Dom/me is a direct reflection on me ... its my firm belief everyone deserves to be treated with some form of common respect till they lose that right .. a rude Dom/me will fast lose the respect they think they deserve . just like a sub/slave can lose respect and not get hers either. in the "old school" a Dom/me was given basic respect of a Sir or Ma'am .. it was a common respect given I personally think that the internet has played a large part in subs and slaves who do not extend common respect or courtestys ... maybe it's bad advice handed off by another sub or slave .. maybe it's the plague of the wanker Dom/mes who come to these sites just toattempt to find some "easy sex" I think Tolerable Cruelty and Iron Bear hit on some very good points as did Mr Petee, Me personally .. I try to give everyone there just due . till they prove they don't deserve it .... I try not to harp on it and just move on to talk with those that still are due common reespect ... I know quite a few from both the Dom/me and the sub/slaves that I hold greeat respect for ... and many of them have posted in here ..... and I hope I maintain some just due respect from others in here as well the OP was asking a valid question . one that should be given a deep down thought and response and I hope I did just that. yes you did Master Ravin thank you very much.

feistykitten -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (6/30/2006 9:31:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane Respect is different from common courtesy and good manners. For me, respect is earned by each individual I give or afford it to. Common courtesy/good manners I try to always show and give as a general rule. There are a few who've shown beyond a doubt that they do not deserve even that much from me and those I avoid if at all possible out of courtesy and respect to others around. dont you believe that respect being polite and common curesy all go hand in hand tho? as a few others have said there are different levels of respect....kind of like a gray scale.......ranging anyhere from white to black with many shades of gray in between.

SweetSarijane -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (6/30/2006 9:42:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feistykitten dont you believe that respect being polite and common curesy all go hand in hand tho? as a few others have said there are different levels of respect....kind of like a gray scale.......ranging anyhere from white to black with many shades of gray in between. No I don't really except in one way. I will definitely be courteous and polite most times with those I respect. I will also be blunt and straightforward. Respect is different from plain manners, politeness and courtesy. I have no problem showing courtesy to most all I encounter, but I only give my respect to those who earn it. I don't believe in levels and grey areas of respect. I either respect someone or I don't, that simple for me. I can however respect someone, but not like something they do or say. Edited to add: OMG I'm corrupted now!!!!! lol

TxBadMan -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/1/2006 3:17:27 AM)
quote: wasnt this life at one time based on mutual respect for such diversity? No. This life is no different than any other. The disappointment comes from believing that we somehow have to be *more*. If we would just accept that we are just as human as the rest of the world, all the flaws and imperfections that others have would not seem so huge. ( and by we, I do not mean to imply that everyone has the same opinion ) Just my outlook on things though.

Padriag -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/1/2006 4:07:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach (I'm using fast reply for convenience here... .) The first mistake I see being made in the question asked during the OP is the assumption that Respect and Courtesy are interchangable. These two things are not, never have been, and never will be the same. Agreed quote: Respect is an Emotion. It is an internal, non physical, Learned emotion based on your individual perceptions of generally liking someone, holding them in high regard, considering them Noteworthy in their beliefs and actions, etc. No one, regardless of how much they may rail against it, is capable of dictating someone else's emotional responces. It either grows over time, or it doesn't, based on the actions of the one who Desires to Be Respected. It matters less than nothing what title someone has - whether self appointed or gained through the consensus of their peers - they are still completely incapable of Sucessfully dictating the emotional responces of another. And here's where we disagree. Respect is not an emotion, its a valuation. You don't respect someone because feel respect for them... that's saying that the result is also the cause which makes no sense. You respect someone because you made a valuation regarding them. That is, you may feel various emotional responses because you first made a valuation that, essentially, amounts to "this person is worthy of my respect, therefore I feel more positively towards them." The emotion comes after the valuation, not as the cause of it or itself. That's an important distinction because it explains something else about how respect actually works. Respect requires participation on both sides. Simply put, you cannot respect me if I do not behave or exemplify qualities that you can respect. Put another way, you will never respect a jerk because a jerk is not behaving in a way you can respect. So, before you can respect me you must make a valuation about me, and for it to be possible for that valuation to result in respect for me, I must first behave in ways or have traits that make that respect possible. If I deal honestly with you, you will respect me for my honesty. If I lie to you, you will have no such respect for me. QED As a side note, individual quirks and difference about who respects what has a lot to do with what they expect... respect and expect are two very closely related words. This also makes false another statement you made Rhi, that you cannot control the emotional response of another. I agree that the valuation of respect can result in associated emotional responses. But that very fact proves your statement wrong. If I behave in a way I know you will respect, and as a result you then respect me and as a result of that you feel those associated emotions... guess what, I've controlled your emotions in a predictable and repeatable way. You disagreed with Pete, TC and Discipline (and me btw). Yet here's the rub. As I've just shown respect requires behavior that can be respected. Guess what, you have four gentlemen who've made it quite clear we respect the behavior of courtesy in a submissive. Therefore, if a submissive wants our respect, she'd better be courteous! [;)]

feastie -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/1/2006 6:09:30 AM)
fast reply I'm sure many of you have heard of the leatherman and author Jack Rinella. Through Travis Wilson, I arranged for Mr. Rinella to visit our local group when he was promoting his book, Partners in Power. Upon our meeting, Mr. Rinella, who is quite the charming gentleman, invited me to call him Jack when I had addressed him as Mr. Rinella. He feels no need to be referred to as "Sir" or "Master" by strangers, whether submissive or not. In his writing, Mr. Rinella credits Emily Post as the basis for "het high protocol". With that in mind, I visited www.emilypost.com and found the following regarding respect: The question that this week's poll really asks is, "Can you require respect?" Quite obviously, many people, the majority of respondents to the poll, are willing to try to require it in an effort to bring respect back into our lives. We're not convinced that respect can be required. Such efforts to create rules identifying respect as the use of a specific word miss the point of what respect really is and may actually have the reverse effect. The real key is that we work to earn respect from others. Teachers or others who work with children should expect to be treated with respect, but they also have an obligation to earn the respect of the children by the way they treat the children. Respect has to be earned and given back to the children. We can't demand it of children and then not respect them ourselves. When earned, whether an adult is addressed as "Sir" or Ma'am" or Mr./Mrs./Ms. or even by a nickname or first name, the respect in the way the person is addressed is what really counts. Courtesy and politness have nothing to do with respect. One can be courteous and polite without the use of honorifics. Considering all, it is my opinion that the demand for an honorific from a stranger or person not belonging to you is disrespectful.

BeachMystress -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/1/2006 8:04:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicetempted To BeachMystress who said :- Anyone can claim any title they choose. I'm pretty sure that my cat signs on at times as Master Grand Poobah of the Universe. While I will agree that my cat has very dominant tendencies, his lack of foresight and due diligence of care for his subs (We get non consensually scratched all the time!), he is not a Master. Does this mean that all the promises Master Grand Poobah of the Universe made to me about our future together are worthless? [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m18.gif[/image] I'm sorry.. we once let Master Grand Poobah of the Universe have a cricket as a pet. He ate it. His promises are worthless. But hey, he might let you eat his next cricket with him....

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/1/2006 10:35:29 PM)
Padraig - while I love you dearly, my friend, there are certain portions of this that we'll simply have to agree to disagree on. (BTW - yes, I saw upon rereading that you had agreed with TC, Discipline, and Pete - still doesn't change how I personally view any of the 4 of you LoL.) While I both understand, and agree with, your premis that Valuation is a better descriptive than Emotion - and that Respect as a Valuation requires some sort of participation on both sides - that's where things begin to diverge again. Perhaps it's simply my own contrariness, but I stand firm in my belief that no one is capable of Sucessfully controling the Emotions of another. At least no one is capable of doing so without the Aquiesence of the one who's emotions are being controled. Emotional responce, much like so many other things within this particular set of mutual hobbies, is a matter of power exchange - your influence over my emotions (and subsequent emotionally driven actions) ends when I deny you that power. Often we're not even conscious of the exchange in either direction. When we're unaware that we're offering someone power over us, it becomes impossible to claim that power back unto ourselves. However when we ARE aware that someone else's influence is a direct result of allowing them an amount of control over our lives - it becomes relatively easy to deny them that power, and cease to be influenced in such a manner. It is also possible to respect someone - or to like them - while having no liking for their actions at any given time. Which, to my own perspective, contradicts what you maintain about your actions being Required to gain respect. While your actions might certainly help make your case, and more often than not can Break a case - the human animal is by no means a Logical creature, and such can (and often is) ignored in the face of evidence to contradict what we first decide emotionally.

Padriag -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 12:58:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach Padraig - while I love you dearly, my friend, there are certain portions of this that we'll simply have to agree to disagree on. (BTW - yes, I saw upon rereading that you had agreed with TC, Discipline, and Pete - still doesn't change how I personally view any of the 4 of you LoL.) Yeah but we haven't had a good debate in ages, we're way overdue! [;)] I'm going to re-arrange your post in my reply a bit and take the easy point first. quote: It is also possible to respect someone - or to like them - while having no liking for their actions at any given time. Which, to my own perspective, contradicts what you maintain about your actions being Required to gain respect. While your actions might certainly help make your case, and more often than not can Break a case - the human animal is by no means a Logical creature, and such can (and often is) ignored in the face of evidence to contradict what we first decide emotionally. Actually it doesn't contradict it at all. I had to dig this out of another thread, but here's a relevant portion of a post I made which I think shed's more light on my perspective. quote: Respect is something else entirely. Respect is an awareness and appreciation of an individual for their personal achievements, ability, accomplishments, character, etc. Respect can be for either good or bad qualities, and respect can also be assigned to an object. For example. I respect Leonardo da Vinci and Thomas Edison for their creativity and inventiveness. I have a respect for guns because I appreciate the damage they can inflict. There are two points that are important here. First that respect can be for either good or bad traits. Second, respect can be for anything, people, animals, even objects. Here's a personal ancedote that I think drives home my point. I hate possums, they're nasty, destructive overgrown rats. If I see one, I want it dead. I also have a great respect for possums, they are remarkably tough creatures. In fact, they're just about the toughest creature, pound for pound, I've ever encountered. Several years ago I had a problem with possums where I live, I was overrun by an unexpect population explosion of them. They got into everything outside, killed two of my cats, tore up garbage CANS (not to mention the garbage inside them) and destroyed flower pots and lawn furniture. Unamused I went on a killing spree, if I saw a possum... it died... simple as that. One night I'm sitting at home watching TV, I hear a noise on the back porch and not surprisingly its a possum, a big one. Being in a particularly evil mood I grabbed my broadsword (yes I own a broadsword folks) and went after it (yes, there I am swinging a broadsword in my back yard in hot pursuit of a large rat... rather comical in retrospect). I ended up running it through with such force the sword was stuck a good 12 inches into the ground. The possum however, was not dead, it lay there, pinned, growling at me. Feeling especially evil toward this overgrown rat, I left it there and went back to watching TV. And hour later I came back expecting to find a dead possum... it wasn't dead. In fact it was trying to climb up the blade to somehow get free. It had also managed to leave tiny teeth marks in a STEEL blade. I was impressed... any creature I could think of (including myself) would probably have simply bled to death by now... but not this possum. I was so impressed by it I let him go. Pulled the sword out, stepped back and watched as he limped off into the forest. The next day I decided to track him to see if he'd died... he hadn't. I followed his track at least a half mile before I finally lost him at a tree. If he died, he did it somewhere else and quite awhile later. To this day I'm still impressed with just how tough that possum was, and I respect that. But I still hate possums. Okay... so Saladin and Richard it ain't... true story though. quote: Perhaps it's simply my own contrariness, but I stand firm in my belief that no one is capable of Sucessfully controling the Emotions of another. At least no one is capable of doing so without the Aquiesence of the one who's emotions are being controled. Emotional responce, much like so many other things within this particular set of mutual hobbies, is a matter of power exchange - your influence over my emotions (and subsequent emotionally driven actions) ends when I deny you that power. One of these days we're going to have to have a long chat about Skinner. Short of that, let me see if I can put it another way. You like me. That's an emotion. Why do you like me? And my guess would be its because of my behavior, my character, my traits... these things appeal to you, because of them you find me likeable and respectable. If I behaved contrary to that, you would not like me. Agreed? Therefore, my behavior has caused you to like me... I have caused you to feel a particular way, and that is controlling your emotions. Admittedly it was not deliberate on either of our parts, and admittedly its a limited degree of control, but there it is none the less. But it could be deliberate. I wrote elsewhere a brief note about two words... respect and expect, that they are closely related. They truly are (so much so I've an essay on it laying around here somewhere). We tend to respect most that which is most like what we expect. In other words, you like me because by a happy coincedence, I happen to resemble what you expect. Suppose however, I had foreknowledge of exactly what you expect, could I not then give the appearance of being what you expect and thus inspire you to respect me or like me. Marketing departments devote a great deal of energy to just that, to trying to figure out what people expect of a product, and then make it appear to be that. If a bottle of, say shampoo, appears to be just what you expect it to be... you are more likely to buy it. In fact, theoretically if those circumstance could be manipulated enough, you'd be certain to buy it. Ever meet someone you felt like you'd always known, but hadn't? Nothing mystical about it, they just happen to be very similar to what you expect of other people... the more closely someone resembles our expectations the more familiar they seem, and the more we tend to like them. There's a very fascinating book I recently read by Dr Robert Cialdini "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion", you ought to give it a read when you have time.

ChainedExistence -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 7:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feistykitten What if you work in a very formal workplace.....and lets say that you think your boss is a total idiot..... and thats ok cause that is your opinion but you wouldnt tell him that when he comes to your desk and asks you to do something. you would simply say "yes Sir" and do it. That is token respect....you dont have to agree with anything they say nor do you have to like them. but because he carries the title of boss (and it doesnt even matter how he made it that far up the ladder) you say Sir. but the original question doesnt have anything to do with or about the forums just a bit more of my two cents. shrugs That's an example of positional power and it really has little to do with real power. Positional power often resorts in people giving Malicious compliance and respect. What I mean by that is they won't ever go the extra mile for you-all they will do is the absolute minimum. While being nice to your face , they will stab you in the back every opportunity they get. Someone who commands real power inspires you to do more and will elicit mannerly behavior without demanding it.

catize -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 7:42:04 AM)
I have a submissive friend; her Master has dictated that she is to use an honorific only in reference to him and no other. His reasoning is that she is submissive to him and to no other. Would you tell her and her dominant to wipe their noses and go back to fantasyland? I have a dominant friend; he was in the military and hates the word 'Sir' and does not wish to be called 'Sir'. His reasoning is that he had to use that word too many times in reference to people he did not respect. Would you tell him to wipe his nose and go back to fantasy land? In venues such as this forum, I believe we are on equal footing. To expect that all who identify as submissive should automatically respect all who identify as dominant is, in itself, unrealistic, especially on line.

zenofeller -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 7:48:42 AM)
actually, to expect anyone to respect everyone automatically is unrealistic, period. respect is not a right, and people are not entitled to respect by virtue of the fact they draw breath, or manage to bang a message and shoot it to a board.

catize -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 7:51:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zenofeller actually, to expect anyone to respect everyone automatically is unrealistic, period. respect is not a right, and people are not entitled to respect by virtue of the fact they draw breath, or manage to bang a message and shoot it to a board. Agreed!

Mistressinwis -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 7:56:09 AM)
Even in this "venue" as you refer to it, I am a Domme, and as such, demand the respect of submissives. You don't have to respect me personally, because you don't know me, but you give respect to my station. It is the same as the President, you don't have to respect the man holding Office, but you have to respect the Office. By disrespecting the man, you disrespect the Office. If you tell people you are a submissive, then I will expect you to act like one whether in the company of your "Sir" or not. In my BDSM community, respect and protocol are the first thing a slave and sub are taught. Punishment for disrespect is swift, and carried out by the Dominant that the disrespect was toward, whether that Dom/Domme owns the sub or not. It is to teach respect for all, and get them out of the habit of only respecting their Owner. Mistress A

zenofeller -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 8:02:27 AM)
sorry to break it to you inwis, but your station here is 16 year old cali female, but really an 80 year old pittsburg steel plant worker/33 year old male living in parent's basement. just live everyone else. don't get ahead of yourself.

bandit25 -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 8:11:30 AM)
The only problem I have with that is that ANYONE can call themselves anything they want. I understand respecting the station, but not everyone deserves the station.

catize -> RE: where has all the respect gone? (7/2/2006 8:14:59 AM)
quote: You don't have to respect me personally, because you don't know me, but you give respect to my station. I would suggest that in giving respect to the station, I withhold respect for the person until I am assured they live up to the title and all that it entails.

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