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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 8:19:15 AM   
papassion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion



The commodity advisory services are advising investors to invest in natural gas and fuels based on the NASA data calling for COLDER winters. . (you know, the guys who put their money where their mouth is)


Natural gas being plentiful,clean and cheap would have nothing to do with it now would it?


There is a well known principle called "supply and demand." You may have heard of it. When demand (caused by colder winters) goes up, so does the PRICE. And "supply" can be controlled to create an artificial "shortage" causing further price increases. Opec is well versed in this. I would assume the gas industry has taken notice of this too. You are obviously not an investor, right?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 8:32:19 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion



The commodity advisory services are advising investors to invest in natural gas and fuels based on the NASA data calling for COLDER winters. . (you know, the guys who put their money where their mouth is)


Natural gas being plentiful,clean and cheap would have nothing to do with it now would it?


There is a well known principle called "supply and demand." You may have heard of it. When demand (caused by colder winters) goes up, so does the PRICE. And "supply" can be controlled to create an artificial "shortage" causing further price increases. Opec is well versed in this. I would assume the gas industry has taken notice of this too. You are obviously not an investor, right?

You appear to be obviously unfamiliar with the price manipulations common to the petroleum industry.
supply and demand have nothing to do with the price of oil as has been shown numerous times.
Some of the highest prices frequently come at times of significantly lower demand.
We have shown that frequently on these boards.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 9:28:59 AM   
papassion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion



The commodity advisory services are advising investors to invest in natural gas and fuels based on the NASA data calling for COLDER winters. . (you know, the guys who put their money where their mouth is)


Natural gas being plentiful,clean and cheap would have nothing to do with it now would it?


There is a well known principle called "supply and demand." You may have heard of it. When demand (caused by colder winters) goes up, so does the PRICE. And "supply" can be controlled to create an artificial "shortage" causing further price increases. Opec is well versed in this. I would assume the gas industry has taken notice of this too. You are obviously not an investor, right?

You appear to be obviously unfamiliar with the price manipulations common to the petroleum industry.
supply and demand have nothing to do with the price of oil as has been shown numerous times.
Some of the highest prices frequently come at times of significantly lower demand.
We have shown that frequently on these boards.


From what I've seen, there is always some "reason" given for the higher prices like a refinery fire, transportation problems, regulations, etc, causing a "shortage" of the final product.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 9:45:11 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion



From what I've seen, there is always some "reason" given for the higher prices like a refinery fire, transportation problems, regulations, etc, causing a "shortage" of the final product.

I'm glad you put 'reason' in quotes.

Many times 'reason' means Excuse.
You hear all the time that the oil companies haven't been allowed to build a refinery is several decades and that's why gas is expensive.
If you look at facts, you will see that one of the reasons is that they haven't even applied to build one. In fact, some refineries have been shut down in order to artificially keep the price of their products high.

Someone said to invest in natural gas futures to make money.
Ever thought that it is because plants all over the nation have shifted from burning coal to natural gas to power their turbines?
Natural gas at the present price produces more Kwh/dollar than coal.
This winter, a lot less coal will be purchased regardless of the temperatures because most of the power plants will be burning natural gas so a lot more will be sold. A lot more sold is a good indicator of more $ to be made.
If the price goes up, there are massive stockpiles of coal waiting in the wings and the natural gas will just sit in storage unsold. That will keep the price of fracked natural gas low for the forseeable future.

To add an ironic byline, coal mine owners are blaming the Obama administration and environmentalists for "Costing jobs and trying to put them out of business".
It's not the administration and environmentalists killing the coal industry.
It's big oil killing the coal industry.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 9:48:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
From what I've seen, there is always some "reason" given for the higher prices like a refinery fire, transportation problems, regulations, etc, causing a "shortage" of the final product.

I'm glad you put 'reason' in quotes.
Many times 'reason' means Excuse.
You hear all the time that the oil companies haven't been allowed to build a refinery is several decades and that's why gas is expensive.
If you look at facts, you will see that one of the reasons is that they haven't even applied to build one. In fact, some refineries have been shut down in order to artificially keep the price of their products high.
Someone said to invest in natural gas futures to make money.
Ever thought that it is because plants all over the nation have shifted from burning coal to natural gas to power their turbines?
Natural gas at the present price produces more Kwh/dollar than coal.
This winter, a lot less coal will be purchased regardless of the temperatures because most of the power plants will be burning natural gas so a lot more will be sold. A lot more sold is a good indicator of more $ to be made.
If the price goes up, there are massive stockpiles of coal waiting in the wings and the natural gas will just sit in storage unsold. That will keep the price of fracked natural gas low for the forseeable future.
To add an ironic byline, coal mine owners are blaming the Obama administration and environmentalists for "Costing jobs and trying to put them out of business".
It's not the administration and environmentalists killing the coal industry.
It's big oil killing the coal industry.


Unless Coal can't compete because of regulations implemented at Obama's behest. If that is the case (and I'm saying "if" because I don't know and I'm not going to look it up), then they are at least partially correct.


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 9:55:58 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
From what I've seen, there is always some "reason" given for the higher prices like a refinery fire, transportation problems, regulations, etc, causing a "shortage" of the final product.

I'm glad you put 'reason' in quotes.
Many times 'reason' means Excuse.
You hear all the time that the oil companies haven't been allowed to build a refinery is several decades and that's why gas is expensive.
If you look at facts, you will see that one of the reasons is that they haven't even applied to build one. In fact, some refineries have been shut down in order to artificially keep the price of their products high.
Someone said to invest in natural gas futures to make money.
Ever thought that it is because plants all over the nation have shifted from burning coal to natural gas to power their turbines?
Natural gas at the present price produces more Kwh/dollar than coal.
This winter, a lot less coal will be purchased regardless of the temperatures because most of the power plants will be burning natural gas so a lot more will be sold. A lot more sold is a good indicator of more $ to be made.
If the price goes up, there are massive stockpiles of coal waiting in the wings and the natural gas will just sit in storage unsold. That will keep the price of fracked natural gas low for the forseeable future.
To add an ironic byline, coal mine owners are blaming the Obama administration and environmentalists for "Costing jobs and trying to put them out of business".
It's not the administration and environmentalists killing the coal industry.
It's big oil killing the coal industry.


Unless Coal can't compete because of regulations implemented at Obama's behest. If that is the case (and I'm saying "if" because I don't know and I'm not going to look it up), then they are at least partially correct.


The only thing I have seen new in the coal country north of me is the grassroots campaign against mountaintop removal where they take the whole top off a mountain, shove the overburden into the surrounding valleys, remove the coal and leave a nice flat sterile moonscape where there used to be mountains and valleys.
That's decided at the state level though and not the federal level.

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 1:25:28 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

But of course if there was big money to be made denying that the world is round, there'd probably be a lot of people still believing that "the science isn't clear," or that it's a great conspiracy by all the world's geographers, navigators, astronomers and space scientists, who are in the pay of the Illuminati to bring about world government.


You forgot to mention all those nasty Lefties who are conspiring to use rising sea levels to re-distribute wealth more evenly. I guess when we are all up to our necks in salt water, the poverty gap might seem slightly irrelevant ........



Tweak, if that's true then why did AlGore buy a mansion on the beach in S. California about two years ago?

I'll put it to you then. From your article, I want from you and others in your belief, to tell me just exactly how the Al Gores of the world are proifiting from their stance on climate change and sea levels. Throw in carbon, CO2 and the like if you need to.

We know the opponents are profiteers, it's their fiduciary responsibility to exploit all the earth's resources for a profit. So how does AL make money on all of this ?

BTW, I don't need science, lakes in Canada that failed freeze-over, 3 times in 100 years have now failed to freeze 6 times in the last 18 years. Rising sea levels effecting the sea-side property of a former R-Gov. of S. Carolina he has been telling people...is killing his pine trees.

For those in doubt, do some research on the melting of fresh water on Greenland. MILLIONS and millions of gallons per day is going right into the sea.

Ah, but al of this is not really happening hey ?

Imagine if Greenland was to melt entirely. We;d seriously be fucked.



Well, CBS says that Algore("The planet has a F-E-V-E-R!") is worth "in excess of $200 m."
Other sources in Google peg his net worth at $300m.
I think he gets $200k per speech which is a lot less than say Bill Clinton who commands $500k per speech.
He also sold a bunch of shares of Apple stock and was on their board of directors and excercised a bunch of options.
(Not bad for someone with a degree in"Divinity" eh?)
"Others in my belief?" You mean like,.....Deniers?
"Lakes in Canada that failed to freeze over." Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
One of the problems with "global warming" (or whatever they're calling it this week) is that they're really giving people the *hard sell* on it just like if you were in a car dealership and the salesman called in his "manager." You know something's wrong like when they..."stole" those e-mails of the guys in England who were lying.
And another *HUGE* problem is getting the "U.N." involved. When they were formed they were supposed to be a deliberative body now it seems they've,..."branched out" into..."other things."
Most people simply don't take the "U.N." seriously. They've become a bad joke! If I had a "cause" I'd never want it associated with the "U.N."
A good detective always follows the money.

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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 1:37:44 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:


"Lakes in Canada that failed to freeze over." Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


Do you know what that Latin phrase means? I know you do not, because you wouldn't say something that stupid, and you say some really stupid shit.

Here is a hint. After is what Post means. And to be post hoc ergo propter hoc, there must be no apparent logical causality.



< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/27/2013 1:38:58 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 2:33:57 PM   
Joan51


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Status: offline 		http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-global-warming-warning-cant-be-ignored/2013/08/26/448eb232-0c39-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html

Humans’ complicity in climate change can’t be ignored
By Editorial Board, Published: August 26

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 4:07:56 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Do you know what that Latin phrase means? I know you do not, because you wouldn't say something that stupid, and you say some really stupid shit.

Here is a hint. After is what Post means. And to be post hoc ergo propter hoc, there must be no apparent logical causality.




Wot you talkin `bout Willis ? It`s all Greek to me.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 4:29:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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At times I find these debates about climate change on here hilarious and in so many different ways. Mostly, I read through such threads thinking, 'How can people be so staggeringly stupid about the politics behind the science'? After more than a century of trashing Marx's argument that beliefs are shaped by those who have the money and are offering it, climate change deniers are now accepting that view.

But not because it supports the idea that immensely rich, multinational oil companies, for instance, will lap up the writings of the Bjorn Lomborgs of this world who will trash the fundamental thinking behind the massive collection of climatologists that make up the IPCC and its findings in favour of the idea of anthroprogenically-induced global warming. Oh no. When deniers say 'Hey, follow the money!', they mean, 'Hey, look at those pro-climate-change-thesis scientists who are getting research grants!' So, highly-trained scientists are willing to warp their views and pervert what their brains tell them for the supposedly princely sums of what their research grant providers give them?

I'm not aware of any individual, company or government agency that is willing to make me a millionaire if I cook up some 'evidence' that shows that anthropogenically-induced global warming is occurring and is a menace to the planet. I'm unaware of a government that so desperately wants to piss off big oil companies that it'll promise me wild riches beyond my dreams in order to prove that humans are fucking up the planet. I'm also not aware of any fantastically wealthy wind-farm multinational company that will pass me six-figure backhanders in order to publish research in favour of their position. I *am*, however, aware of immensely rich and powerful climate-destroying companies who'll pay handsomely to anyone who'll spin what they do as 'green' in a way that will be seen as having weight.

I would like gently to suggest to deniers of the idea of human-induced climate change that they are *not*, in fact, 'mavericks' and 'individualists' who 'buck the trend' and 'think for themselves', unlike the 'sheeple'. What they are is a minority bunch of dinosaurs who have turned their dinosaur mentality into a virtue. No, that's wrong. What they are is a bunch of people who lap up the self-serving, professed beliefs of fat, rich dinosaurs, even though these fat, rich dinosaurs don't give a toss about them.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/27/2013 5:22:38 PM >

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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/27/2013 4:39:50 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		The guy who epitomizes the obvious connection between climate change denial and big money is Frederick Seitz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Seitz
Seitz was a major researcher into solid state physics (basically how electronics works) but in the 70's and 80's he took huge sums from RJ Reynolds Tobacco and suddenly he was an expert who said tobacco was not harmful. When that fell apart he then started taking more huge sums from the old energy industry and suddenly he was a skeptic on climate change.

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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 2:53:50 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

At times I find these debates about climate change on here hilarious and in so many different ways. Mostly, I read through such threads thinking, 'How can people be so staggeringly stupid about the politics behind the science'? After more than a century of trashing Marx's argument that beliefs are shaped by those who have the money and are offering it, climate change deniers are now accepting that view.


I agree, although I can see that with some people, the idea of climate change and global warming indicate a rather bleak future for the Earth, and some people just aren't willing to accept negativity or anything that might be pessimistic of the future.

I also think that people have been given quite a number of predictions of disaster and doom, warnings of danger around every corner. If global warming doesn't get us, then an asteroid will, and if an asteroid doesn't get us, we'll wipe each other out with nuclear weapons. If we don't wipe each other out, then we'll all starve to death due to overpopulation or be forced to subsist on Soylent Green.

I still have a book entitled "We are the Earthquake Generation" which projected that half of the U.S. would be wiped out by earthquakes...by 1996. Didn't happen, and here I was, hoping that Arizona would finally get some beachfront property.

I think I've personally survived at least half a dozen predicted "doomsdays" that never happened. Y2K, 5-5-2000, 12-21-12, and a few others I can't remember now. During the 1970s, I remember them saying that overpopulation was a timebomb, but at some point, that suddenly no longer was an issue. There was one physicist who used to protest at elevator factories because he thought that elevators were causing a reduction in the Earth's gravity. This was an actual scientist with a PhD, not some bum off the street. On paper, this guy should be smarter than most of us, and yet...

During my lifetime, people have been handed predictions of gloom and doom for quite some time, so I can imagine that there would be those who might take it with a grain of salt.


< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 8/28/2013 2:54:28 AM >

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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 4:10:22 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Here is my take on the whole issue.

Climate change is indeed man made, exactly how much is down to man alone is unkown. Scientists are still not in full agreement on the issue, which doesnt help the situation. The problem with modern science though is this, it is funded by industry, part of which favour new technology, which brings new markets and therefore increased revenue. Part of the research is also funded by those in the old industries, with a vested interest in not accepting new technology.

Governments are not helping by latching onto the idea of "Climate change" and "Green Energy" as a way of obtaining votes. The whole Carbon Credit scheme is little more than a scam, since how the hell can it work when nations can buy and sell credits ? It`s also open to fraud. In many instances, the industrialised nations buy credits from the non industrialised ones, my question would be, what incentive is that for these markets to grow ?

Green Energy, as has been stated, isnt all it is cracked up to be, at least not yet. If you take Wind Turbines, they are often neither cost effective or practical. Yet that will change in time, just not instantly as many of those who support new energy sources insist. On the other hand, the UK now has the Worlds largest offshore windfarm, where energy is seen to work and presently seems slightly more affordable. Cost HAS to be a consideration, or inflation could get out of hand as the energy industry start to reap huge profits.

New energy isnt cheap, so if we are serious about using it, tax payers will have to subsidise some of the investment, taxpayers should also be able to reap some of the financial benefits. Governments need to get a grip and keep the energy giants well regulated and making a profit margin which is fair to both sides.

At the end of the day its the same old shit, industrialists looking to maximise profits at all costs, in some industries, there has to be give and take.


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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 5:03:09 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
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Status: offline 		About natural gas.

When we lived on the farm, we had a contractor who wanted us to sign a contract about drilling on our property. All 3 sides had agreed but we would not do it. For one it gave them the right to put as many holes in the ground as they saw fit, and had huge liberties to our land for 5 yrs for some tiny monetary reimbursement. They may or may not find gas, although they said geographically we were prime. and they may or may not drill during that 5 yr period of time. Our thoughts on that were, our land was farmed for food, which didn't make much, but still the whole thing was about not giving liberties to possibly destroy land totally, being at the mercy of that for want of money vs. not fixing what wasn't broken. Most likely only a few holes would have been dug but what they had liberty to do was crazy. We didn't trust it.

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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 5:36:38 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Do you know what that Latin phrase means? I know you do not, because you wouldn't say something that stupid, and you say some really stupid shit.

Here is a hint. After is what Post means. And to be post hoc ergo propter hoc, there must be no apparent logical causality.




Wot you talkin `bout Willis ? It`s all Greek to me.



Me too so I googled it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 5:38:56 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I also think that people have been given quite a number of predictions of disaster and doom, warnings of danger around every corner. If global warming doesn't get us, then an asteroid will, and if an asteroid doesn't get us, we'll wipe each other out with nuclear weapons. If we don't wipe each other out, then we'll all starve to death due to overpopulation or be forced to subsist on Soylent Green.


Against that, though we don't hear about them much, are the 'complacency-mongerings' (I know - it's not so catchy a term as 'doom-mongering'.) For instance, I particularly remember reading of a well-researched and cogently argued tract that effectively destroyed all doomsaying about the possibility of there being another world war. It was published in 1938. 'Complacency-mongering' goes way beyond smugness, I think. It's produced by a much, much stronger and more widespread force than that which produces the doomsaying outlook.

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RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 5:42:15 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The guy who epitomizes the obvious connection between climate change denial and big money is Frederick Seitz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Seitz
Seitz was a major researcher into solid state physics (basically how electronics works) but in the 70's and 80's he took huge sums from RJ Reynolds Tobacco and suddenly he was an expert who said tobacco was not harmful. When that fell apart he then started taking more huge sums from the old energy industry and suddenly he was a skeptic on climate change.


Interesting. I wonder if anyone thought of taking that guy to court for crimes against humanity. What a world class shit.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 6:50:34 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

New energy isnt cheap, so if we are serious about using it, tax payers will have to subsidise some of the investment, taxpayers should also be able to reap some of the financial benefits. Governments need to get a grip and keep the energy giants well regulated and making a profit margin which is fair to both sides.

At the end of the day its the same old shit, industrialists looking to maximise profits at all costs, in some industries, there has to be give and take.


That's a good analysis, Politesub53. I think that the other side of the coin should be directed towards energy conservation. I remember there was a big push towards that during the 70s when the energy crisis was going on, but that didn't really take hold. People enjoy using energy, and the powers that be have no other choice but to keep supplying them with it, otherwise all hell will break loose. A city-wide power outage or a severe disruption of gasoline supplies can produce chaos overnight.

I hope that we can come up with some alternatives. Solar and wind sounded promising, and perhaps more research and development in those areas can make it more viable and affordable.

As a non-scientist, I've tried to understand the basics about global warming, and I think that most scientists agree that it is happening, although how much is due to man and how much is due to natural occurrence is where there might be disagreement. Either way, the activities of man should still be examined and determine whether or not we're contributing to the problem. Are there ways that we can make it better? From what I've been able to understand, a great deal of damage has already been done, so whatever we do might be prolonging the inevitable.

I try to leave science to the scientists, but it's really a political decision as to what we do with the information which is provided to us. I accept the consensus of scientists, but rather than question the scientists, the more practical question is what do we do about the situation at hand. The scientists are just the messengers, but it's up to the rest of society to decide what to do about it. I don't think the message is false, as some try to make it out to be.

As you said, some industries might suffer if we felt compelled to switch over to a "clean" and "green" economy. People might have to change a lot of their habits, use less energy. Other industries might also suffer. So, I can see where some might resist the idea.

There are also other political realities to deal with in that emerging industrial powers and other nations in the developing world are thirsty for energy, industry, and infrastructure that they'll want all the benefits that the West has come to enjoy. Are we going to deny them that because of the environmental implications? This is kind of a dilemma we're facing.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: More good news on the fraud that is global warming - 8/28/2013 7:42:57 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Do you know what that Latin phrase means? I know you do not, because you wouldn't say something that stupid, and you say some really stupid shit.

Here is a hint. After is what Post means. And to be post hoc ergo propter hoc, there must be no apparent logical causality.




Wot you talkin `bout Willis ? It`s all Greek to me.



That is Moonhead's line old cheese. Who is watching the Latins?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 40
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