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The only persons considered founding fathers that can be considered to have been raised as Puritans were John and Samuel Adams and John Hancock. None were ministers, John Adams was lawyer, Samuel Adams was a brewer and John Hancock ran an import/export business.

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http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

From your own source:

Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Later in his adult life Jefferson did not consider himself an Episcopalian, or a member of any other specific denomination. Later in life Jefferson held many clearly Christian, Deist, and Unitarian beliefs, but was not a member of any congregation or denomination.

By some of the more narrowly-conceived definitions of the word "Christian" which are in use today, particularly among Evangelicals since the 1940s, it is entirely possible that Jefferson's beliefs would mark him as a "non-Christian."

But Jefferson had real trouble with the Divinity of Christ and he had real trouble with the description of various events mentioned in both the New and the Old Testament so that he was an enlightened skeptic who was profoundly interested in the figure of Christ as a human being and as an ethical teacher. But he was not religious in any modern meaning of that word or any eighteenth century meaning of that word. He wasn't a regular church goer and he never affiliated himself with a religious denomination--unlike Washington who actually did.

The principal Founding Fathers--Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin--were in fact deeply suspicious of a European pattern of governmental involvement in religion. They were deeply concerned about an involvement in religion because they saw government as corrupting religion.

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anddddd MAYBEEEEE thats why the rest of the founding father sent him off to france while they wrote the constitution so he couldn't push his RADICAL ideas into the constitution?

I wasn't there, but it seems ODD to me the guy who wrote that dec of ind wasn't invited to help write the constitution....

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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anddddd MAYBEEEEE thats why the rest of the founding father sent him off to france while they wrote the constitution so he couldn't push his RADICAL ideas into the constitution?

I wasn't there, but it seems ODD to me the guy who wrote that dec of ind wasn't invited to help write the constitution....

And it seems ODD to me that the guy you were touting in post 40 as an example of a Christian founding father is now, just a few posts later, a RADICAL who needs to be exiled so he won't infect the Constitution.

Yeah, that's a line of argument to take seriously--NOT.

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ALSO you say

"But Jefferson had real trouble with the Divinity of Christ and he had real trouble with the description of various events mentioned"

sorry but NO thats not CLEAR thats just how YOU chose to interpert what he wrote!

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are you going to force me to go on a quest to dig em up?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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ALSO you say

"But Jefferson had real trouble with the Divinity of Christ and he had real trouble with the description of various events mentioned"

sorry but NO thats not CLEAR thats just how YOU chose to interpert what he wrote!

Had you troubled to read the material you were cutting and pasting, you'd know that the "real trouble" sentence is not my assertion. It's a quote--taken from, ahem, your own source--from Jon Butler, Dean of the Graduate School of Arts & Sciences at Yale University and author of Awash in a Sea of Faith: Christianizing the American People (Harvard University Press, 1990).

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are you going to force me to go on a quest to dig em up?

Don't bother. At this point, I see no reason to take anything you post seriously.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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The only persons considered founding fathers that can be considered to have been raised as Puritans were John and Samuel Adams and John Hancock. None were ministers, John Adams was lawyer, Samuel Adams was a brewer and John Hancock ran an import/export business.

UNTRUE

The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s.


http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

anddddd MAYBEEEEE thats why the rest of the founding father sent him off to france while they wrote the constitution so he couldn't push his RADICAL ideas into the constitution?

I wasn't there, but it seems ODD to me the guy who wrote that dec of ind wasn't invited to help write the constitution....

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe.
MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister?

You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe.
MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister?

You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
anddddd MAYBEEEEE thats why the rest of the founding father sent him off to france while they wrote the constitution so he couldn't push his RADICAL ideas into the constitution?
I wasn't there, but it seems ODD to me the guy who wrote that dec of ind wasn't invited to help write the constitution....

Jefferson was appointed Minister to France, our closest and basically only ally at the time, in 1785 after the death of his wife because his friends were concerned about the depression he had fallen into. He remained there until the French Revolution began in 1789. The Constitutional Convention occurred over 4 months in 1787. So no he was not sent to France for any such ridiculous reason.
Furthermore his close friend and ally James Madison was a prominent voice in the Convention and much of the Constitution is based on his, influenced by Jefferson, ideas.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe.
MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister?

You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural.

Many make much of Jefferson's phrase "separation of church and state" yet forget the reason of it. Jefferson had a position in the church of england in virginia and was required to be so for political office - and was additionally required to take no action nor say ought that wasn't in accord with the church.

Pretty much everyone would agree that calls for some separation.

But people forget that Jefferson as president funded christian preachers to the indian lands.

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Jefferson, as president attended religious services in the house - and did not object to them because they were

Non discriminatory, and non forced.

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Jefferson also often wrote that a belief in higher authority was necessary and providential for our nation. (Such as is his second(?) inaugural address....)

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
AHA! So, our DoI was written by a "soon-to-be" Minister! Bam!!! [8D]

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
...Don't see God.....no matter.....its an opinion...my own thought... my own connection that I put lots of time into with study. I live in Jesus land and IM very proud of it.
Lets see how well men do with their own will and actions. lets see how equal it becomes. I hope it turns out well.

So tell us what this study was and what it is based on. Does David Barton or Wallbuilders figure into any of it?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe.
MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister?

You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural.

Many make much of Jefferson's phrase "separation of church and state" yet forget the reason of it. Jefferson had a position in the church of england in virginia and was required to be so for political office - and was additionally required to take no action nor say ought that wasn't in accord with the church.

Pretty much everyone would agree that calls for some separation.

But people forget that Jefferson as president funded christian preachers to the indian lands.

Straight from Barton
http://gettingjeffersonright.com/david-bartons-capitol-tour-did-thomas-jefferson-spend-federal-funds-to-evangelize-the-kaskaskia-indians/

Personally I wouldn't believe anything that lying piece of shit claims.

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Jefferson, as president attended religious services in the house - and did not object to them because they were

Non discriminatory, and non forced.

Another Barton claim
http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-did-jefferson-approve-church-in-the-capitol/

Seems likely that sort of church would not be considered as church today. Unless you know of a church where the members debate many different religious views?

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Jefferson also often wrote that a belief in higher authority was necessary and providential for our nation. (Such as is his second(?) inaugural address....)

Saying it in a single speech doesn't make it often. His letters are far more frequently skeptical or down right dismissive of Christianity than supportive and in those letters and speeches where he does make mention of such positively it seems more or less a de rigueur addition.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So all this post says is that you don't like Barton. As usual, no counter quotes. If you have no facts, pound the table.

And Jefferson wasn't dismissive to Christianity -- far from it. He was however *very* dismissive of clergy, and organizations. Don't conflate the two.

Jefferson didn't go to the effort of making his own bible, and studying it daily because he hated christianity - he believed that christ was an incredible moral authority. That kind of action speaks to a man that very firmly believes in God, and had the discipline of conviction.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So all this post says is that you don't like Barton. As usual, no counter quotes. If you have no facts, pound the table.

And Jefferson wasn't dismissive to Christianity -- far from it. He was however *very* dismissive of clergy, and organizations. Don't conflate the two.

Jefferson didn't go to the effort of making his own bible, and studying it daily because he hated christianity - he believed that christ was an incredible moral authority. That kind of action speaks to a man that very firmly believes in God, and had the discipline of conviction.

I provided links to extensive debunkings of this stuff by scholars who went to the primary sources and you simply ignored it.

Here let me make it easy for you
http://gettingjeffersonright.com/david-bartons-capitol-tour-did-thomas-jefferson-spend-federal-funds-to-evangelize-the-kaskaskia-indians/
http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-did-jefferson-approve-church-in-the-capitol/

Yes Jefferson was dismissive of Christianity. He edited a bible that left out every single mention of any supernatural claim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
He very firmly did not believe in any god described in any "holy" text. He quite specifically rejected the entire NT's claims of divinity for Jesus.

Now for some actual real statements by Jefferson showing he was not a devout Christian
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
No sir, those studies from the most powerful book ever written. Specifically at this time and with this discussion. The whole book of Ephesians, which is quite short by the way. Read it if you would like to be included in that knowledge.