RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion

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thompsonx -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 2:47:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I said based on GOD not religion. Yet it is the "god" of the religious right that is being pimped here so no diff. No those are radical men/women. Wasn't jesus a radical? People have choices. No place in the bible were people thrown down and forced to do his will. Always choices until the end. Sodom and gamora???where were there tickets for the arc? How bout being chucked out of the garden of eden,what choice there?

njlauren -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 3:48:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: The only persons considered founding fathers that can be considered to have been raised as Puritans were John and Samuel Adams and John Hancock. None were ministers, John Adams was lawyer, Samuel Adams was a brewer and John Hancock ran an import/export business. UNTRUE The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s. http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html Adherents.com is a religious right website trying to promote the idea that somehow the founders wanted a religious theocracy, and it is crap. That the founders belonged to churches and such no one would argue, to give you an idea of what the times were like, the term 'atheist' in the 18th century meant someone who didn't believe the standard orthodoxy (for example, the unitarians, who didn't believe in the trinity), it was unheard of not to believe in God (which is why Tom Paine, as much as he was a firebrand for the revolution, was treated like shit..he ended up not even being able to be buried in a cemetery). That said, all the attempts of the religious right to paint the founders as like them is doomed to failure. Some were evangelical Christians of the sort we have running around today, Benjamin Rush was an example, others were congregationalists who hated the evangelicals (Adams was one of them). Madison went to church and believed, but he also fought against attempts to force belief into law, and he was the prime writer of the constitution and the bill of rights (in a private letter, he said that when you mix church and state, you get a corrupt religion and an oppressive state, his exact words). The one thing most of them had as a model is the oppression of religion, the evangelicals, the Methodists and Presbytyrians, had been fined and jailed by the Anglicans, and they all had the example of the Catholic Church, so it is unlikely they would want a religious state. Did they believe in God? Yep. Did they believe that God may have had something with what they were doing? Among other things, many of the framers of this country were children of the enlightenment, and one of the concepts of the enlightenment is the idea that God granted men the right to be free, that no ruler had the right to tamper with that, and it is a bad leap of faith to try and think that a religious government could allow that freedom. You can argue the constitution mirrors religious teaching and framework, but the reality is the founders were heterogeneous, they had varying beliefs and it would be very hard to put together a constitution that reflected' common beliefs' because those didn't really exist. Catholics would fear the oppression they found, evangelicals the oppression of the mainstream anglican church and so forth, so the best answer to them would be to keep religion out of the government, and they did. The fact is, the idea of power resting in the people was an enlightenment era belief, and it was grounded in the idea of inalienable rights and that power flowed through the ruled, not the ruler (which went against what conventional religion at the time believed, most Christian churches believed rulers got their power from God and one thing most religions of the time agreed on was that they didn't like democracy, shattered their nice little power sharing relationship. There is a reason the constitution only mentions religion in the 1st amendment, it was because it was written as a legal document of rights and there deliberately was nothing religious about it.

njlauren -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 3:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html From your own source: Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Later in his adult life Jefferson did not consider himself an Episcopalian, or a member of any other specific denomination. Later in life Jefferson held many clearly Christian, Deist, and Unitarian beliefs, but was not a member of any congregation or denomination. By some of the more narrowly-conceived definitions of the word "Christian" which are in use today, particularly among Evangelicals since the 1940s, it is entirely possible that Jefferson's beliefs would mark him as a "non-Christian." But Jefferson had real trouble with the Divinity of Christ and he had real trouble with the description of various events mentioned in both the New and the Old Testament so that he was an enlightened skeptic who was profoundly interested in the figure of Christ as a human being and as an ethical teacher. But he was not religious in any modern meaning of that word or any eighteenth century meaning of that word. He wasn't a regular church goer and he never affiliated himself with a religious denomination--unlike Washington who actually did. The principal Founding Fathers--Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin--were in fact deeply suspicious of a European pattern of governmental involvement in religion. They were deeply concerned about an involvement in religion because they saw government as corrupting religion. anddddd MAYBEEEEE thats why the rest of the founding father sent him off to france while they wrote the constitution so he couldn't push his RADICAL ideas into the constitution? I wasn't there, but it seems ODD to me the guy who wrote that dec of ind wasn't invited to help write the constitution.... alsoooo as pointed out in that source, just because you RETROACTIVLY change the meaning of something does not mean you get to CLAIM RETROACTIVLY that someone ISN'T something he clearly was at the time be was alive. ALSO you say "But Jefferson had real trouble with the Divinity of Christ and he had real trouble with the description of various events mentioned" sorry but NO thats not CLEAR thats just how YOU chose to interpert what he wrote! lets also keep in mind you draw jefferson like a GUN, but he is only ONE of over 200 founding fathers... I can show you quotes of several other founding fathers that say the OPPOSITE of what you beleive jefferson is saying! are you going to force me to go on a quest to dig em up? I can't remember the man's name but there is one founding father who is quoted (paraphrased) as saying RELIGION should absolutley be required in educational insitutions also you do realize while it was defeated it was hoty debated that there should be a RELIGION TAX included in the constitution, BTW I think jefferson was against it! the fact that there were enough people for it to make it an actual argument should tell you something! see now you are going to say well the MAJORITY were against it and defeated it, and yess you are 100% correct there, which also makes jefferson a TEENY TINY MINORITY in this disscussion! Jefferson was in France for the same reason Adams was overseas, they both were trying to get support for the new country, especially financial help, to keep the government going, they were looking for loans and also to restructure existing debt, plus forge alliances, it wasn't to get Jefferson out of the way, or Adams. The structure of the US constitution took a lot from John Adam's constitution in Massachusetts (that is still in use), and it is near impossible to suggest Adams and Jefferson were not influential simply because they were there. As far as quoting what founders said, some of them did probably believe in theocracy, of religion in everything, but they were the majority either, and what everyone forgets is that the constitution had to form a grand compromise between all the varying beliefs, so it would have been very hard to get religion put in the constitution to start with. We have the compromise of the senate and house, we have the electoral college, all represented compromises, and there were plenty of others. In that environment, they were trying to get a government formed, and battles over religion would have been a distraction. Add all that up, and the idea of the constitution being religious or even directly religion inspired is difficult, I can trace a line from some enlightenment religious beliefs, of personal freedom and the right of the governed to choose their leaders and so forth, but that it about it. If people really want to see, find a book called 'The founders on Religion", which among other things, shows how the views were all over the place..and also blows out some of the myths, like Washington wanted a religious state (when Washington died, he refused a priest, doesn't sound like a theocrat to me...)

njlauren -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 3:58:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe. MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister? You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural. Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons).[citation needed] Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.[citation needed] A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson[19][20][21] (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.[22] Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[23] Paine wasn't a deist, he detested religion, and was outspoken about it, and was refused burial because of it.

njlauren -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 4:00:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe. MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister? You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural. Many make much of Jefferson's phrase "separation of church and state" yet forget the reason of it. Jefferson had a position in the church of england in virginia and was required to be so for political office - and was additionally required to take no action nor say ought that wasn't in accord with the church. Pretty much everyone would agree that calls for some separation. But people forget that Jefferson as president funded christian preachers to the indian lands. Straight from Barton http://gettingjeffersonright.com/david-bartons-capitol-tour-did-thomas-jefferson-spend-federal-funds-to-evangelize-the-kaskaskia-indians/ Personally I wouldn't believe anything that lying piece of shit claims. quote: Jefferson, as president attended religious services in the house - and did not object to them because they were Non discriminatory, and non forced. Another Barton claim http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-did-jefferson-approve-church-in-the-capitol/ Seems likely that sort of church would not be considered as church today. Unless you know of a church where the members debate many different religious views? quote: Jefferson also often wrote that a belief in higher authority was necessary and providential for our nation. (Such as is his second(?) inaugural address....) Saying it in a single speech doesn't make it often. His letters are far more frequently skeptical or down right dismissive of Christianity than supportive and in those letters and speeches where he does make mention of such positively it seems more or less a de rigueur addition. David Barton makes up shit, it is amazing, run what he writes about through fact checkers and it is about as relevant as the myth of Washington and the cherry tree.

njlauren -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 4:06:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux So all this post says is that you don't like Barton. As usual, no counter quotes. If you have no facts, pound the table. And Jefferson wasn't dismissive to Christianity -- far from it. He was however very dismissive of clergy, and organizations. Don't conflate the two. Jefferson didn't go to the effort of making his own bible, and studying it daily because he hated christianity - he believed that christ was an incredible moral authority. That kind of action speaks to a man that very firmly believes in God, and had the discipline of conviction. I provided links to extensive debunkings of this stuff by scholars who went to the primary sources and you simply ignored it. Here let me make it easy for you http://gettingjeffersonright.com/david-bartons-capitol-tour-did-thomas-jefferson-spend-federal-funds-to-evangelize-the-kaskaskia-indians/ http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-did-jefferson-approve-church-in-the-capitol/ Yes Jefferson was dismissive of Christianity. He edited a bible that left out every single mention of any supernatural claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/ He very firmly did not believe in any god described in any "holy" text. He quite specifically rejected the entire NT's claims of divinity for Jesus. Now for some actual real statements by Jefferson showing he was not a devout Christian Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?") The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814 To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820 And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 All it points to for me is he did not be believe in Jesus or any kind of mystic being born as flesh to experience our lives and save us. He was not a bit interested in God though? or proving this long told story wrong? He went as far as to make his own bible? lol. With all due respect to a very fine great man who holds a huge place in history, having a very logical mind and great intelligence could make one feel like a God themselves and very unaccepting to supernatural events that can not be explained by them. Jefferson likely believed in a God but it was not the God of the NT with the trinity and such, it wasn't the nasty, in your face God of the OT, it was likely the God of the deists, the creator that lived in nature, had set the universe in motion, but didn't interfere in daily lives, read prayers, etd...and that kind of belief is not likely to spawn someone who wanted a government based on God. As a sidelight, Patrick Henry fought a pitched battle to have Virginia make the episcopal church the official church of the state, receive funding and so forth, and both Jefferson and Madison fought him tooth and nail. Doens't sound like a person wanting a theocracy.

njlauren -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 4:15:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Honestly Jeff I would have to study for awhile what you ask, I do not know. I am limited on that type of knowledge, but maybe one of the greater minds can attempt to give a view. But I will definitely study it, because it is quite an interesting question. I am no authority and I hope I am not coming off as one, because I certainly don't mean too. I'll ask around also. I think I actually have an ordained priest of something or another on my facebook friends and he's always been pretty knowledgeable. It's just sort of an interesting question that popped into my head as I was pondering this. I did a bit of googling and got some scholarly reviews on the relevant sections but "some scholarly reviews" when you're talking about the bible is really not good enough and the opinions are mixed. For instance, the immediate purpose of "render unto Caesar..." was taxation and gold coins. There is some debate about whether Jesus meant that to go beyond the one question of taxation. Yeah, I need a hardcore expert on this. Where's a jesuit priest when you need one? I was never saying our democracy should change, I simply meant I believe Gods imprint is on the constitution. I think our founding fathers were incredibly smart fair people who knew the dangers of religion governing all people , it wasn't fair, not all people believed the same way. But I believe God was in mind and had a direct impact when they made that document. It becomes very dangerous when religions start picking what they want to believe out of the bible and leaving out other sections. It becomes very dangerous when people become so narrow in their beliefs that another set of people aren't Gods people because well the doctrine they believe which very well might be picked apart says so. It becomes very dangerous when false prophets arise claiming to be people of God but their actions are always compromising. Especially so on people in power. I bet God would prefer an honest sinner who admits over a lying religious person any day of the week. I believe my route to God is thru Jesus, I believe he was the son of God. Now someone else might believe him a very special messenger, but if we are living by the words spoken, of Gods, and live in sincerity and the best we can that is what God wants. He wants us unified. He wants us understanding to others sin, witnessing and not judging. He wants the rich to give to the poor. He wants the poor to rise from poverty. He wants people to live in victory and goodness. He wants spiritual healing and fullness and satisfaction and joy and worship. He expects more from us and he expects discipline, and there are consequences to not heeding. How many versions of the bible are there anyway? How many different religions? How many different quarans? How many divines? Everyone wants to be right, and Gods will isn't being done but mans will in a lot of circumstances. If everyone who claimed to be Christians acted like it, and everyone of different religiions, practiced the very best of their books and God, this world would sincerely be a different place. I have a very good life and I thank God for it everyday. Things I used to do, things I worried about, my lack concerns are morphed when others are taken in consideration. We are suppose to love each other and show compassion. You could argue that , someone would have a hard time proving it wrong if you say how a group of men came together and created something revolutionary and there wasn't some influence there shrug. I could argue at the very least, it was a group of men with the brains and wisdom to try and create something radically new. Whether most people realize it or not, what they did at the constitutional convention technically was illegal, they were chartered with amending the articles of confederation (which would not have worked) and instead created something brand new. I can't say for sure God did it, but it isn't hard to think given the odds against them they would have come up with what they did. Personally, I would argue that the US owes a huge debt to Washington, him leading the convention alone meant it was able to do what it did. I don't have a problem with someone believing that the constitution happened because of some sort of intervention, as long as that isn't used to try and argue the us should be a theocracy, I don't find that troubling and in many ways I could agree with it.

DomKen -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 4:26:30 PM)
I've been following him and his lie machine for 10 years or so ever since a family member hauled out his book "America's Godly Heritage" and showed me a quote he attributed to Madison that was completely contrary to everything I'd ever read by Madison. quote: We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves . . . according to the Ten Commandments of God. As soon as I could get to a decent library I started looking for the quote (Madison's writings are in a very good collection of books) and could not find it or anything remotely like it. The Barton book did not have any sourcing info so I started searching on the web and immediately found Madison scholars saying the quote did not exist. Barton has since been forced to admit that he made it up along with numerous others. That a piece of shit wannabe theocrat simply makes shit up to support his claims and the right wingers let him get away with it was my first encounter with the far rights move to isolate itself from reality.

DomKen -> RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion (9/1/2013 4:30:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren As a sidelight, Patrick Henry fought a pitched battle to have Virginia make the episcopal church the official church of the state, receive funding and so forth, and both Jefferson and Madison fought him tooth and nail. Doens't sound like a person wanting a theocracy. Actually the Episcopal Church was the state religion in Virginia. Madison and Jefferson fought to disestablish it and Henry fought to keep it. Jefferson started the process in 1779 as Governor, he wrote the bill, but it took till 1786 to get it done.

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