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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 10:25:55 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
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Status: offline 		Honestly Jeff I would have to study for awhile what you ask, I do not know. I am limited on that type of knowledge, but maybe one of the greater minds can attempt to give a view. But I will definitely study it, because it is quite an interesting question. I am no authority and I hope I am not coming off as one, because I certainly don't mean too.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 10:39:05 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Honestly Jeff I would have to study for awhile what you ask, I do not know. I am limited on that type of knowledge, but maybe one of the greater minds can attempt to give a view. But I will definitely study it, because it is quite an interesting question. I am no authority and I hope I am not coming off as one, because I certainly don't mean too.

I'll ask around also. I think I actually have an ordained priest of something or another on my facebook friends and he's always been pretty knowledgeable. It's just sort of an interesting question that popped into my head as I was pondering this. I did a bit of googling and got some scholarly reviews on the relevant sections but "some scholarly reviews" when you're talking about the bible is really not good enough and the opinions are mixed. For instance, the immediate purpose of "render unto Caesar..." was taxation and gold coins. There is some debate about whether Jesus meant that to go beyond the one question of taxation.

Yeah, I need a hardcore expert on this. Where's a jesuit priest when you need one?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 10:54:59 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So all this post says is that you don't like Barton. As usual, no counter quotes. If you have no facts, pound the table.

And Jefferson wasn't dismissive to Christianity -- far from it. He was however *very* dismissive of clergy, and organizations. Don't conflate the two.

Jefferson didn't go to the effort of making his own bible, and studying it daily because he hated christianity - he believed that christ was an incredible moral authority. That kind of action speaks to a man that very firmly believes in God, and had the discipline of conviction.


I provided links to extensive debunkings of this stuff by scholars who went to the primary sources and you simply ignored it.

Here let me make it easy for you
http://gettingjeffersonright.com/david-bartons-capitol-tour-did-thomas-jefferson-spend-federal-funds-to-evangelize-the-kaskaskia-indians/
http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-did-jefferson-approve-church-in-the-capitol/

Yes Jefferson was dismissive of Christianity. He edited a bible that left out every single mention of any supernatural claim.

Editing out the supernatural means you are dismissive of the supernatural, not christianity.

Let *me* make it clearer to you.

He edited *the supernatural* out of *Christianity*. He threw out supernatural and kept... Christianity.

Its very similar to Luther. Luther posted his 99 thesis. He rejected many behaviors in the catholic church. But that didn't make him an unbeliever. It made him a Protestant.

quote:



Now for some actual real statements by Jefferson showing he was not a devout Christian
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

.
.
.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823



Again, your quotes do not support your bias.

A). Your throckmorton evidence shows that Jefferson had the US government pay to erect a church, and pay to support the salary of a priest.

So much for your interpretation of Jefferson's separation of church and state.

B). I have readily acknowledged that Jefferson did not believe in miracles and mysteries. I readily concur that he did not like churches that opposed science.

But it is absolutely *RIDICULOUS* to claim from that that Jefferson was not a believer. He himself said he was a believer, but in a sect of one.

Jefferson believed in the 10 commandments; he believed in the moral authority of the beatitudes.

Who cares what an experts believes to be the truth: you can go to the man himself and read his creation:

http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/62/The_Jefferson_Bible_The_Life__Morals_of_Jesus_of_Nazareth_2.html

And most people on reading that - would say his belief is Christian, although as jefferson said - a sect of one.

Your quote - "restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors" is not the quote of an unbeliever, but a man that believed but hated mysticism.

Your quote
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. "

Does not say "there is no god". What it says is - question with boldness. If you posit a god, he must approve the exercise of reason, and the diligence of the search rather than blind belief.

Finally, someone who disbelieved would not bother with attending church at all (church of england included) and Jefferson's attendance is well documented. As I noted previously, he held a position as a lay officer in the church.


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 8/30/2013 11:01:24 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 11:18:44 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		But that 'most' people would 'call' him a christian is blathering idiocy.

no crediblility for most,nor calling, no more than calling your common nutsucker fiscally responsible would make it so, or calling them a majority of americans.

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 11:32:43 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Editing out the supernatural means you are dismissive of the supernatural, not christianity.

Let *me* make it clearer to you.

He edited *the supernatural* out of *Christianity*. He threw out supernatural and kept... Christianity.

Let's examine this one statement.

You claim that it is possible to be dismissive of the supernatural and still be a Christian.

I disagree. The very foundation of Christianity IS the supernatural.
Making man out of clay
The great flood. Where did the water come from and go?
Parting the Red Sea
Angels
Devila
Speaking flamable bushes
Virgin birth
Healing the sick
Smashing walls down by blowing a horn at them.
The plagues of Egypt.
Creating food for hundreds out of a small basket of loaves and fishes
The tower of Babel and everyone waking up speaking a different language
Dying and coming back to life 3 days later.

Finally: Immortality because you beg for the collar of that big Dom in the sky.

The entire religion is based on the supernatural.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 11:34:39 AM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Honestly Jeff I would have to study for awhile what you ask, I do not know. I am limited on that type of knowledge, but maybe one of the greater minds can attempt to give a view. But I will definitely study it, because it is quite an interesting question. I am no authority and I hope I am not coming off as one, because I certainly don't mean too.

I'll ask around also. I think I actually have an ordained priest of something or another on my facebook friends and he's always been pretty knowledgeable. It's just sort of an interesting question that popped into my head as I was pondering this. I did a bit of googling and got some scholarly reviews on the relevant sections but "some scholarly reviews" when you're talking about the bible is really not good enough and the opinions are mixed. For instance, the immediate purpose of "render unto Caesar..." was taxation and gold coins. There is some debate about whether Jesus meant that to go beyond the one question of taxation.

Yeah, I need a hardcore expert on this. Where's a jesuit priest when you need one?



From what I've read, Jesus was being set up when asked about taxation/tribute. So he answers a question with a question: Whose image is inscribed on the coin?.

Here's the catch: The coin has an image of Tiberius, and the writing around it identifies Tiberius as the son of the God Augustus. Implicitly the coin demands worship of another god, worship of a engraved/inscribed image (big bad no-no in the first tesatament... just ask Moses), but also implicit in Judaism is that everything of this earth belongs to God, including silver and diamonds and gold.


He wasn't say "pay your taxes ", he implied quite cleverly that you can go ahead and offer to caesar what is caesar's... except when you get down to it, none of it belongs to ceasar, and everything belongs to God.


I found that a very interesting interpretation, but it makes sense with his style of dealing with interrogation.. are you the son of god "it's you who says I am".

Offside, another tenet from the bible which is often misinterpreted is "an eye for an eye". It's not about justification for getting your pound flesh, satisfaction or compensation. It's about no retribution, consequence or payment should be greater than the harm which was inflicted upon you. Interesting huh? It's a cautionary ethic against vendettas and revenge. Criminals have rights .. we struggle with that still today,

That Jesus... feed the poor, house the homeless, heal the sick, turn the other cheek. I just don't get how all the rightwingnut politicos identify with him. Everything that Jesus would want for people and would do for them, they would vote against.. big time and yet they call themselves the religious right. Well it sure ain't the religion jesus espoused doncha know....


But then, maybe that's why the above interpretation of "render unto Caesar" isn't that popular.

Humans eh?



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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 11:39:01 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Editing out the supernatural means you are dismissive of the supernatural, not christianity.

Let *me* make it clearer to you.

He edited *the supernatural* out of *Christianity*. He threw out supernatural and kept... Christianity.

Let's examine this one statement.

You claim that it is possible to be dismissive of the supernatural and still be a Christian.

I disagree....


Whereas Dictionary.com says a christian is:
"a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity;
a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ"

I would say a man that studied the teachings of Christ everyday in his life qualifies.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 11:47:12 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I personally know of several days in his life he absolutely did not study the teachings of christ.

So, that tenuously pasted together bit of nothingness is dismissed out of hand.

Would you say that Stalin was a christian (he studied at seminary).


How about hitler?

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.

(he actually said that)

I mean it is all rather nebulous in terms of truth and actual meaning all in all done, innit?

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 12:24:58 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Editing out the supernatural means you are dismissive of the supernatural, not christianity.

Let *me* make it clearer to you.

He edited *the supernatural* out of *Christianity*. He threw out supernatural and kept... Christianity.

Let's examine this one statement.

You claim that it is possible to be dismissive of the supernatural and still be a Christian.

I disagree....


Whereas Dictionary.com says a christian is:
"a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity;
a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ"

I would say a man that studied the teachings of Christ everyday in his life qualifies.


I have studied the teachings of Christ extensively and think they are an excellent way for a man to lead his life. I am not a Christian.

There are many who follow most of the teachings of Christ who are not Christians.
Buddhists, Muslims (Christ is one of their prophets), Jews accept him as a prophet but not the Messiah, neopagans and a host of other religious groups. Many Aetheists follow the teachings of Christ a lot better than those who raise their hands and voices and pass the collection plate every Sunday.

They are not Christians.

A Christian is one who accepts Christ as the messiah and their savior. This leads to the aforementioned immortality.

"Everlasting Life" as described in the KJV is supernatural.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/30/2013 1:20:39 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:10:45 PM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Honestly Jeff I would have to study for awhile what you ask, I do not know. I am limited on that type of knowledge, but maybe one of the greater minds can attempt to give a view. But I will definitely study it, because it is quite an interesting question. I am no authority and I hope I am not coming off as one, because I certainly don't mean too.

I'll ask around also. I think I actually have an ordained priest of something or another on my facebook friends and he's always been pretty knowledgeable. It's just sort of an interesting question that popped into my head as I was pondering this. I did a bit of googling and got some scholarly reviews on the relevant sections but "some scholarly reviews" when you're talking about the bible is really not good enough and the opinions are mixed. For instance, the immediate purpose of "render unto Caesar..." was taxation and gold coins. There is some debate about whether Jesus meant that to go beyond the one question of taxation.

Yeah, I need a hardcore expert on this. Where's a jesuit priest when you need one?



I was never saying our democracy should change, I simply meant I believe Gods imprint is on the constitution. I think our founding fathers were incredibly smart fair people who knew the dangers of religion governing all people , it wasn't fair, not all people believed the same way. But I believe God was in mind and had a direct impact when they made that document.
It becomes very dangerous when religions start picking what they want to believe out of the bible and leaving out other sections. It becomes very dangerous when people become so narrow in their beliefs that another set of people aren't Gods people because well the doctrine they believe which very well might be picked apart says so. It becomes very dangerous when false prophets arise claiming to be people of God but their actions are always compromising. Especially so on people in power. I bet God would prefer an honest sinner who admits over a lying religious person any day of the week.
I believe my route to God is thru Jesus, I believe he was the son of God. Now someone else might believe him a very special messenger, but if we are living by the words spoken, of Gods, and live in sincerity and the best we can that is what God wants. He wants us unified. He wants us understanding to others sin, witnessing and not judging. He wants the rich to give to the poor. He wants the poor to rise from poverty. He wants people to live in victory and goodness. He wants spiritual healing and fullness and satisfaction and joy and worship.
He expects more from us and he expects discipline, and there are consequences to not heeding.

How many versions of the bible are there anyway? How many different religions? How many different quarans?
How many divines?
Everyone wants to be right, and Gods will isn't being done but mans will in a lot of circumstances. If everyone who claimed to be Christians acted like it, and everyone of different religiions, practiced the very best of their books and God, this world would sincerely be a different place.
I have a very good life and I thank God for it everyday. Things I used to do, things I worried about, my lack concerns are morphed when others are taken in consideration. We are suppose to love each other and show compassion.



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My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:16:07 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
I found that a very interesting interpretation, but it makes sense with his style of dealing with interrogation.. are you the son of god "it's you who says I am".

*nods* I found several very plausible and very different interpretations. That's why I thought an expert might be in order if I can find one. At least that conversation will help me to understand the meta layers about the different viewpoints.

quote:

That Jesus... feed the poor, house the homeless, heal the sick, turn the other cheek. I just don't get how all the rightwingnut politicos identify with him. Everything that Jesus would want for people and would do for them, they would vote against.. big time and yet they call themselves the religious right. Well it sure ain't the religion jesus espoused doncha know....

I gotta admit that I've thought that it's a good thing for many Christians that I'm not Christ because man, they'd have some explaining to do. I can just see myself saying, "Uh dude. Was I unclear somewhere? Because honestly I thought I was pretty straightforward. What part of 'Love your fellow man' was unclear? The whole leviticus thing. Didn't I say that was then, this is now? Did you actually ever read anything at all or did you just make this shit up out of whole clothe?" Yeah, there'd be some unhappy conversations when they came a-calling. Because honestly I am no Christian scholar but I thought he made his point pretty clearly and repetitively. Let me get it down to two words, "Play nice"


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:22:06 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion.

Yet it is the "god" of the religious right that is being pimped here so no diff.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:22:37 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I was never saying our democracy should change, I simply meant I believe Gods imprint is on the constitution. I think our founding fathers were incredibly smart fair people who knew the dangers of religion governing all people , it wasn't fair, not all people believed the same way. But I believe God was in mind and had a direct impact when they made that document....

Agreed (or at least no heartburn) with that whole post. So long as we stay away from "theocracy" (and one code phrase for that is "christian principles") then I'm fine with saying "Good stuff happened somehow and we don't want to oppress anyone who happens to think differently. We'll let God & Jesus sort that out. It's above our pay grade" :)


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:23:38 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:


Whereas Dictionary.com says a christian is:
"a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity;
a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ"

Who on the religious right or the moral majority fit the above discription?

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:32:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		FR. Back to the subject. We're arguing over whether the founders were religious men. some were, some weren't. the discussion is whether the Constitution is Biblically based.

The main body, I don't see how even the most rabid bible thumper can claim it is Biblical as all it does is show how the government is to be set up. it's nuts and bolts, not morals.

Let's go to Amendment 1.

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Now, let's go to the the first and some say the foremost of the 10 commandments.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Are these 2 compatible? NO.

One says. We will make no laws regarding the establishment of a religion
The other says By LAW, you WILL follow this one and only God.

Totally incompatible.

The Bible does not in any way allow freedom of religion. The Constitution guarantees it.

Argument over.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 1:51:27 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
All it points to for me is he did not be believe in Jesus or any kind of mystic being born as flesh to experience our lives and save us. He was not a bit interested in God though? or proving this long told story wrong? He went as far as to make his own bible? lol. With all due respect to a very fine great man who holds a huge place in history, having a very logical mind and great intelligence could make one feel like a God themselves and very unaccepting to supernatural events that can not be explained by them.

The central tenet of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus. Jefferson rejected that idea. He repeatedly said he felt that the person depicted in the gospels was an extraordinarily moral person. Not a god, son of a god, third of a god or anything of the sort.

That's why people are reduced to arguing he was a Deist which is not Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 2:10:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
A). Your throckmorton evidence shows that Jefferson had the US government pay to erect a church, and pay to support the salary of a priest.

Wrong and wrong again as always.

Your claim was. straight from Barton:
quote:

But people forget that Jefferson as president funded christian preachers to the indian lands

In reality what he did was send some money to a small tribe in central Illinois so they could continue to have a priest and to keep up their existing church as part of a treaty. He did not spend US tax money to send preachers anywhere.

quote:

But it is absolutely *RIDICULOUS* to claim from that that Jefferson was not a believer. He himself said he was a believer, but in a sect of one.

Jefferson believed in the 10 commandments; he believed in the moral authority of the beatitudes.

He did not believe in the 10 commandments!

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

And he did not follow them either. Sally Heming was married when he carried on his affair with her.

quote:

Finally, someone who disbelieved would not bother with attending church at all (church of england included) and Jefferson's attendance is well documented. As I noted previously, he held a position as a lay officer in the church.

For a significant portion of his life membership in the Episcopal church was required to hold elected office in Virginia. He actually wrote the law that disestablished that state religion while he was Governor of the state of Virginia in 1779, furthermore his church attendance after the death of his wife was uncommon as the link I provided earlier showed and that was despite an attack by his political opponents that he was an atheist and infidel during the 1800 Presidential campaign.

Jefferson may not have been an atheist but he certainly was not a Christian.


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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 2:50:04 PM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion.

Yet it is the "god" of the religious right that is being pimped here so no diff.



No those are radical men/women. People have choices. No place in the bible were people thrown down and forced to do his will. Always choices until the end.

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My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 2:55:39 PM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
All it points to for me is he did not be believe in Jesus or any kind of mystic being born as flesh to experience our lives and save us. He was not a bit interested in God though? or proving this long told story wrong? He went as far as to make his own bible? lol. With all due respect to a very fine great man who holds a huge place in history, having a very logical mind and great intelligence could make one feel like a God themselves and very unaccepting to supernatural events that can not be explained by them.

The central tenet of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus. Jefferson rejected that idea. He repeatedly said he felt that the person depicted in the gospels was an extraordinarily moral person. Not a god, son of a god, third of a god or anything of the sort.

That's why people are reduced to arguing he was a Deist which is not Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism


Ok, whatever he believed in, he was still a great man. He showed great fascination toward studies obviously.


_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/30/2013 2:58:11 PM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I was never saying our democracy should change, I simply meant I believe Gods imprint is on the constitution. I think our founding fathers were incredibly smart fair people who knew the dangers of religion governing all people , it wasn't fair, not all people believed the same way. But I believe God was in mind and had a direct impact when they made that document....

Agreed (or at least no heartburn) with that whole post. So long as we stay away from "theocracy" (and one code phrase for that is "christian principles") then I'm fine with saying "Good stuff happened somehow and we don't want to oppress anyone who happens to think differently. We'll let God & Jesus sort that out. It's above our pay grade" :)



ha. CHeck is in the mail along with some tums ( just in case.) whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 80
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