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toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 6:21:41 AM   
Edwynn


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A three year old child somehow got ahold of her father's gun, investigated the contraption as a child normally would, and the loaded gun with safety off happened to fire at a very wrong time.

Her investigation ended there.

This isn't about anti-gun, it's about anti-stupidity and criminal negligence.

The criminal negligence demonstrated by those who foisted this law allowing guns into national parks in the first place.


But somehow it has come about in the US that any measure against anti-stupidity equates to 'anti-gun,' or an attack against 'freedom.'

When it get's to the point that loss of innocent life is held to be in support of 'freedom,' then I think there is some reassessment of that (by such standard) warped concept that might be in order.

Anyone should be allowed to have a firearm within their own premises, which is the notion in the US and several other countries. I've never argued with that, though I don't feel the need to go to that extent myself.

But the congressman who foisted this law of public carry in national parks is most assuredly NOT looking out for the safety of his constituents, howevermuch the NRA that paid for his election says otherwise.

The gun that this three year old girl was playing with could have gone off while pointed in who-knows-what direction, which could have resulted in an even greater tragedy of the gun going off while inadvertently aimed at another child in the same crowded campground, and the girl having to live with that for the rest of her life.

Yellowstone National Park is NOT Chicago or NYC, and it was completely senseless that Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) shoehorned this amendment/rider into a credit card law three years ago, same year as the child was born. Yeah, that guy was looking out for this girl's future, wasn't he?

What crime spree was going on in Yellowstone to provoke such response from this Senator?

None.

What was he paid by the NRA?

Plenty.

This isn't an anti-gun diatribe. I've made that clear. Anyone can defend their castle however they wish.

This is an anti-stupid and anti-contraDarwinist epistle.

Any Senator that foists this insanity upon society needs to be pointed out. Sen Coburn needs to take responsibility for endangering society. If this law is not rescinded soon, then the next three yr. old getting hands on his/her daddy's gun might accidentally shoot another adult or child outside the family. This took place in a popular and crowded camp ground.

A campground with no significant history of bear attacks or any history at all of crime.

If you are worried enough about bear attacks, then don't go that national or state park. But if you do go there, don't force the rest of the people in that park to deal with your ineptitude regarding your gun and your child.

That is NOT a 'request,' however Sen. Coburn or the NRA might take it otherwise.

I didn't pay Sen. Cocksucker, and I'm not going to, so forget me out-bidding the NRA on that one.

Eight out of ten gun owners (of many) that I've known in my life cause me not much worry, the CC types long before legalization of that included.

Whereas the vast majority of those in this and other 'forums' almost make me want to get a gun and shoot you on sight, for sake of humanity, if not for evolution.

But you won't win. I am still with out a weapon, and likely will always be, so no need for worry from my quarter.

But you really need to look out for your own kids better, even if you don't give a flying frap about anybody else's kids.

Sen. Cocksucker most assuredly doesn't give a frap about you OR your kids, the NRA saw to that.

So it's up to you, then.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/12/2013 6:54:14 AM >
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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 6:47:17 AM   
Toysinbabeland


Posts: 1693
Joined: 3/4/2012
From: the other end of Cx's leash
Status: offline 		Darwinism has prevailed.
People learn the hard way, there will be some who learn not to allow access to children.
Imho, I can't imagine the parents will ever forgive themselves or lobby for rights, but I still think it's ok for responsible people to own guns.
I don't own a gun, I probably never will.
God bless the toddler, and forgive the stupid parents.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 6:57:09 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Parks (are) public places paid for with taxpayer dollars.
Also, due to the subject matter this may be against TOS.
"Unmentionables."

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 7:01:53 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		thats a handy way to ignore the fact that lil kids are killing themselves and each other with guns, well done

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 7:31:35 AM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

Sorry,I forgot to link original articles;

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-yellowstone-park-girl-shot-dead-20130908,0,97540.story

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-09-09/news/sns-rt-us-usa-yellowstone-childdeath-20130907_1_yellowstone-national-park-yellowstone-lake-park-spokesman-al-nash

Etc.



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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 7:34:40 AM   
Kirata


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I started out agreeing with you. You'll get no argument from me about combatting and prosecuting negligence with firearms. But for a topic that started out not being about guns, it didn't take you long to make it ALL about guns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

What crime spree was going on in Yellowstone to provoke such response from this Senator?

None.

I don't know about Yellowstone in particular, the worst of it seems to be closer to the southern border, but violent crime is an increasing problem across our national park system.

U.S. Park Visitors Warned Of Mexican Smuggling Violence
    In yet another solid argument for securing the southern border, American families planning to visit national parks this summer are being warned of the imminent danger created by Mexican drug and immigrant smugglers. The violence is so severe that the federal government has posted strongly-worded signs at national parks near the border warning visitors of the risks. Parks police saw the largest uptick in violent incidents, 42 percent...
Southwest National Parks Warn of Violence
    The attack on female trail runner in Rocky Mountain National Park this week was by all accounts rare. But in the Southwest, where the border with Mexico stitches an unruly and uncomfortable juxtaposition, violence is all too common. And now park administrators are taking action to warn visitors
Increasing violence in America's national parks
    photos shown of father and daughter, Donald and Boston Tate, who were murdered on a camping trip; other incidents listed.
Violent uptick noted in U.S. national parks
    U.S. national parks, wildlife refuges and marine sanctuaries faced more attacks in 2012 than 2011, an advocacy group says. Federal employees including park rangers and other law enforcement tasked with patrolling federal lands saw an increase in overall violence and the first death of a park ranger in a decade.
Crime rates tick up across national parks
    A watchdog group last week warned that law enforcement work in national parks is the most dangerous in federal service. "National Park Service officers are 12 times more likely to be killed or injured as a result of an assault than FBI agents," the group Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility reported.
You couldn't resist glomming on this tragedy to rant about people carrying guns in national parks. But when it comes to the people who are being murdered in national parks, you don't seem to care. Better more dead bodies than permit them an effective means of defending themselves. What a humanitarian sentiment.

K.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 7:43:10 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I started out agreeing with you. You'll get no argument from me about combatting and prosecuting negligence with firearms. But for a topic that started out not being about guns, it didn't take you long to make it ALL about guns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

What crime spree was going on in Yellowstone to provoke such response from this Senator?

None.

I don't know about Yellowstone in particular, the worst of it seems to be closer to the southern border, but violent crime is an increasing problem across our national park system.

U.S. Park Visitors Warned Of Mexican Smuggling Violence
    In yet another solid argument for securing the southern border, American families planning to visit national parks this summer are being warned of the imminent danger created by Mexican drug and immigrant smugglers. The violence is so severe that the federal government has posted strongly-worded signs at national parks near the border warning visitors of the risks. Parks police saw the largest uptick in violent incidents, 42 percent...
Southwest National Parks Warn of Violence
    The attack on female trail runner in Rocky Mountain National Park this week was by all accounts rare. But in the Southwest, where the border with Mexico stitches an unruly and uncomfortable juxtaposition, violence is all too common. And now park administrators are taking action to warn visitors
Increasing violence in America's national parks
    photos shown of father and daughter, Donald and Boston Tate, who were murdered on a camping trip; other incidents listed.
Violent uptick noted in U.S. national parks
    U.S. national parks, wildlife refuges and marine sanctuaries faced more attacks in 2012 than 2011, an advocacy group says. Federal employees including park rangers and other law enforcement tasked with patrolling federal lands saw an increase in overall violence and the first death of a park ranger in a decade.
Crime rates tick up across national parks
    A watchdog group last week warned that law enforcement work in national parks is the most dangerous in federal service. "National Park Service officers are 12 times more likely to be killed or injured as a result of an assault than FBI agents," the group Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility reported.
You couldn't resist glomming on this tragedy to rant about people carrying guns in national parks. But when it comes to the people who are being murdered in national parks, you don't seem to care. Better more dead bodies than permit them an effective means of defending themselves. What a humanitarian sentiment.

K.

I believe that yellowstone was deregulated because of situations such as shown in your "old" quotes.
Doesnt seem to have helped huh


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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 7:44:29 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		First of all, no matter how you worded it, this topic was going to be about guns, since the example of stupidity you used dealt with guns.

I have seen in the news recently how an 8 year old killed his little sister with the family car.

A mother lifting her son up to get a better view of African wild dogs in a zoo and the child falling over the safety railing and being mauled to death by the animals.

Not to mention the number of children who die because they were left in a car in the hot sun.

Or the child that pulls a pot of boiling water onto themselves off the stove because Mommy did not use common sense and turn the handle inboard or use a back burner.

As I said in another thread, no amount of safety training, how to training or any other training is going to prevent idiots from being idiots.

So lets cut the bullshit and be honest, lets start another thread about guns and gun control in the US.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 7:50:51 AM   
yourdarkdesire


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Status: offline 		And that would be the end of your thread jlf, because the problem with the US is that you don't HAVE any gun control.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:07:54 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourdarkdesire

And that would be the end of your thread jlf, because the problem with the US is that you don't HAVE any gun control.



Hmm, the fact I have to register a gun when I buy it is no control?

How about the fact that I have to have a back ground check at time of purchase?

How about that simple fact that unless I have a permit, I cannot legally carry a firearm on my person?

As for open carry laws, while legal, it is generally frowned on.

I agree the back ground checks could be stricter, as it is now, they are looking for a criminal record of violent crimes and felonies.

But what the hell, you are probably more familiar with American firearms regulations than I am, me being a gun owner and licensed to carry and all.

It is not like I can go down to the local sporting goods store and purchase a machine gun. It is actually easier to buy a full sized working replica of a civil war cannon than it is to buy a fully automatic weapon. I know, I used to own a full sized working Napoleon.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:15:10 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
First of all, no matter how you worded it, this topic was going to be about guns, since the example of stupidity you used dealt with guns.


Whoa. You came very close to saying that *guns* were stupid, there, JLF, rather than the people using them. Please be careful with your phrasing!

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:20:16 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First of all, no matter how you worded it, this topic was going to be about guns, since the example of stupidity you used dealt with guns.

I have seen in the news recently how an 8 year old killed his little sister with the family car.

A mother lifting her son up to get a better view of African wild dogs in a zoo and the child falling over the safety railing and being mauled to death by the animals.

Not to mention the number of children who die because they were left in a car in the hot sun.

Or the child that pulls a pot of boiling water onto themselves off the stove because Mommy did not use common sense and turn the handle inboard or use a back burner.

As I said in another thread, no amount of safety training, how to training or any other training is going to prevent idiots from being idiots.

So lets cut the bullshit and be honest, lets start another thread about guns and gun control in the US.



How many kids have been locked in cars by other parents?

How many kids have had boiling water spilled on them by neighboring parents at aa crowded campground?

The girl happened to have had the gun pointed to herself at the time of the tragedy, but this took place in a crowded public and popular camping site, and she being three years old, it could have been pointed anywhere at the time of firing.

This isn't about Darwinist 'who cares?' parental neglect to their own, this is about the danger to all of society from such parental fuckwits.



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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:31:16 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Edwynn.

May I point out something you are missing? And I am not trying to insult you.

Most firearm safety is common sense, would you not agree?

Now I turn your attention to the popularity of the TLC series "Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo."

Unfortunately there is not a test to determine if someone is a complete idiot before they buy a gun.

I have a friend that years ago was practicing quick draws and managed to shoot his father's prize breeding bull between the eyes. His dad paid 15K for the bull and never had a chance to breed it and get any calves out of him. Actually had the bull for all of three days.

I have seen gun owners bring in guns to pawn shops with rounds in the chamber. In town a woman found her late fathers 12 gauge in his closet while cleaning out his belongings, she was pointing the weapon at the ceiling when she pulled the trigger and put a deer slug through the roof.

A buddy of mine, 20 year US Army vet, combat infantry, sniper, green beret, someone who really knows firearms... he shot himself in the foot when he was examining his father's antique .22 pistol.

All of these incidents could have been prevented just by practicing common sense.

Personally, I store my firearms in a gun safe with a biometric lock and unloaded. The 1911 that I keep handy for home defense is kept where only an adult over 5'7" can reach. The other 1911 I own that I carry on my person gets the mag pulled when I come into the house and the chamber cleared.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:33:09 AM   
Edwynn


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PS

Nevertheless, I do certainly feel sorry for the little girl.

But I might feel even more sorry for her had the gun fired in another direction and killed someone else, which she would have had to live with for the rest of her life, all due to her utterly irresponsible parents.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:36:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The 1911 that I keep handy for home defense is kept where only an adult over 5'7" can reach. The other 1911 I own that I carry on my person gets the mag pulled when I come into the house and the chamber cleared.


As an Assistant Coach for my son's U-13 baseball team (13 or under at the cutoff date), I can attest that your "storage" spot is not adequate to prevent those who aren't "adults" from reaching them. Well, unless you have someone there checking ID's.

And, this is more a comment on the relative heights of some of the kids my son's team has to play against. I'm 5'11 and I'm not always taller than his competitors.


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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:38:13 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourdarkdesire

And that would be the end of your thread jlf, because the problem with the US is that you don't HAVE any gun control.

I'll spare you the joke about "gun-control" meaning hitting your target. Heh.

Using data from the CDC, there were a total of 14,161 unintentional firearms injuries and 606 unintentional firearms deaths in 2010, among an estimated 80,000,000 gun owners. That's an accident rate of only 1.8 hundredths of a percent, of which 96% were non-fatal. That's pretty good "gun control," or at least one kind of it.

Ergo, attempts to portray gun-owners as incipient idiots, who may at any moment become a danger to themselves and everyone around them, is bullshit peddled by ideologues.

The problem we have in this country is violent criminals with illegal guns, and you will find no gun-owner anywhere opposed to locking them up and throwing away the key. But that's not what we do. It is, however, what we should do, and could be doing, instead of endlessly concocting one scheme after another to dispossess law-abiding citizens of their rights.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/12/2013 9:00:04 AM >

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:40:33 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Edwynn.

May I point out something you are missing? And I am not trying to insult you.

Most firearm safety is common sense, would you not agree?

Now I turn your attention to the popularity of the TLC series "Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo."

Unfortunately there is not a test to determine if someone is a complete idiot before they buy a gun.

I have a friend that years ago was practicing quick draws and managed to shoot his father's prize breeding bull between the eyes. His dad paid 15K for the bull and never had a chance to breed it and get any calves out of him. Actually had the bull for all of three days.

I have seen gun owners bring in guns to pawn shops with rounds in the chamber. In town a woman found her late fathers 12 gauge in his closet while cleaning out his belongings, she was pointing the weapon at the ceiling when she pulled the trigger and put a deer slug through the roof.

A buddy of mine, 20 year US Army vet, combat infantry, sniper, green beret, someone who really knows firearms... he shot himself in the foot when he was examining his father's antique .22 pistol.

All of these incidents could have been prevented just by practicing common sense.

Personally, I store my firearms in a gun safe with a biometric lock and unloaded. The 1911 that I keep handy for home defense is kept where only an adult over 5'7" can reach. The other 1911 I own that I carry on my person gets the mag pulled when I come into the house and the chamber cleared.



I hear what you say.

I have no truck with gun owners in general nor people doing accidental stupid things.

But your evidence points to the fact and the reason why guns were not allowed in national parks until three years ago.

Sen. Coburn forced them to be allowed, a 3 yr. old girl is dead, and it could have been much worse.

Your evidence points out why the law was in place for so many years, but the law changed three years ago, and the result should not be entirely unexpected.




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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:42:38 AM   
SlipSlidingAway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


PS

Nevertheless, I do certainly feel sorry for the little girl.

But I might feel even more sorry for her had the gun fired in another direction and killed someone else, which she would have had to live with for the rest of her life, all due to her utterly irresponsible parents.



That's ridiculous. The child has no responsibility in ANY of this and would not be culpable had she injured or killed another person. It's not like a drunk driver. You are talking about a small child here that is DEAD and feeling MORE sorry for her if she'd injured someone else instead boggles my mind.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 8:44:02 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
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Status: offline 		Well said. I grew up around guns, as did our daughters. There has never been anything close to a gun related accident in this house, nor will there be.

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RE: toddler shoots self in Yellowstone - 9/12/2013 9:06:14 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourdarkdesire

And that would be the end of your thread jlf, because the problem with the US is that you don't HAVE any gun control.


Gun control means using both hands.

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