RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (Full Version)

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evesgrden -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/16/2013 11:23:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.


It's tough to prosecute any crime without motive. Certain motives provide a label for a seperate category of crime, as in "malice aforethought".

Thoughts matter. The thought itself is not criminal, but the motive for a behavior can be so very much. It's the difference between hitting a pedestrian you didn't see accidently and hitting the gas to deliberately run them down. Yes thoughts matter.



Politesub53 -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 2:17:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

You forgot "If you're a woman, don't wear provocative clothing."


He forgot a lot........ The notion there should be areas that one cant visit, hardly makes it the land of the free. The UK is better than it was but still not brilliant. That stands for all types of hate crimes.



Kirata -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:11:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

Keep on being rational and you'll end up with a Derbyshire Award.

K.



thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:49:30 AM)

quote:

I have said before when one runs out of the ability to cogently disagree with someone they invariably point out spelling errors. I intentionally put these spelling errors in so that morons without the ability to think have somehing to respond to.


Sure you do dear, doesn't everyone do that ?


It certainly is working in this case.



thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:02:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
My other than straight white male persona happens to fall into one of the categories mentioned on this thread having the potential to be targeted for a hate crime. I pretty much see it just like boi does. Getting your ass beat for whatever reason sucks. I doubt if any particular law penalizing motives really has much effect deterring some ass from doing hateful shit to certain types of people.

Opinions vary...Many do not share such a welcoming attitude towards thugs.
quote:


What we need to do is strike fear in the hearts of those who would perpetrate such crimes. If you find yourself being hunted down by a bunch of gay bashers, just shoot them.[8D]

So rather than involve ourselves with the rule of law we need to become murderers????[8|]


quote:

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars.
quote:



Aint racism kewel ...I mean it is just common sense.[8|]

quote:

If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar.


Aint being homophobic kewel ...I mean it is just common sense[8|]


quote:

If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go.


Aint being a bogot kewel...I mean it is just commmon sense[8|]
quote:

Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

It would appear that your amerika is only for those who are armed



thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:22:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You really must learn to use the quote boxes if you want your posts understood when you quote so much from before. If nothing else cut and paste out what you want to reply to and put the other persons words in a different color. It at least can be followed then.


You don't seem to haave much trouble deciphering my shit

quote:

What I always come away from this topic is "If someone were a smart racist, or had a bias against someone and wanted to murder them, just make sure to keep your mouth shut and don't have any proof that links you to the hate crime."


Isn't the term "smart racist" an oxymoron???I mean if one were truley smart how could they be a racist?duuuhhh.

quote:

So how many crimes were hate crimes that were never convicted, and how many were not hate crimes that were just murders? Dead is dead and whatever witch hunt makes society feel better, it is still a witch hunt followed by a drum trial.

Once again we are dealing with two crimes not one

quote:

I suppose the intentions of Hate Crime laws be for the better good


Just like laws against murder be for the better good...clearly they have not stopped murder just makes people feel better.





OrionTheWolf -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:32:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You really must learn to use the quote boxes if you want your posts understood when you quote so much from before. If nothing else cut and paste out what you want to reply to and put the other persons words in a different color. It at least can be followed then.


You don't seem to haave much trouble deciphering my shit


Not in this post but the one prior that replied to me it was all jumbled up. Congrats on getting this one correct and making your reply understandable.
quote:


quote:

What I always come away from this topic is "If someone were a smart racist, or had a bias against someone and wanted to murder them, just make sure to keep your mouth shut and don't have any proof that links you to the hate crime."


Isn't the term "smart racist" an oxymoron???I mean if one were truley smart how could they be a racist?duuuhhh.


There are some pretty intelligent people that have been raised wrong by their parents and have some pretty messed up views. Those include racists. I understand the archaic form of division of those with different views, but to just demonize and alienate does nothing to educate others. Your reply still does not refute my statement.


quote:


quote:

So how many crimes were hate crimes that were never convicted, and how many were not hate crimes that were just murders? Dead is dead and whatever witch hunt makes society feel better, it is still a witch hunt followed by a drum trial.

Once again we are dealing with two crimes not one


Only dealing with two crimes because of the extra laws. That is kind of the point some are making. No need with extra laws, just properly prosecute and sentence the existing ones.

quote:


quote:

I suppose the intentions of Hate Crime laws be for the better good


Just like laws against murder be for the better good...clearly they have not stopped murder just makes people feel better.



Murder is an actual crime that is based on laws for a very long time. Hate crimes are not. Can you show what good they have done? Do they deter crime? What exactly is the criminal being punished for?



thishereboi -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:32:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.



Maybe that is the difference. When I hear a story like this, it doesn't strike fear in my heart. I don't sit around and think OMG that could be me. It makes me sick that one person would want to hurt someone like that, but I get the same feeling when I hear about a guy who got beat to death for his wallet or the women who was raped and killed. I think there is an element of hate in any crime like this. They sure as fuck didn't kill them because they liked them.



thishereboi -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:39:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Boi.... You are right, if you were a victim it probably wouldnt make much difference what the motive was. The point about hate crime laws though is this. Its to make it safe for anyone, whatever their race religion or sexuality, not to live in fear.

Look at it another way. Sadly it pertains to life in many towns and cities these days.

If you go out, you have a chance of being robbed.
If you are gay, you have the added chance of being beaten for that.
I strongly believe we should all stand up against hate crimes, from whatever direction they come. If that means making them illegal acts, so be it.




It is already against the law to kill someone. If you get caught, you will go to jail. I would venture a guess that most people who kill don't believe they will get caught unless they are on a suicide run. So how will adding to the sentence change anything? Do you honestly think they are going to stop and think about the consequences before they take action? If that were true, there would be no crime.



thishereboi -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:43:00 AM)

quote:

If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go.


Oh I don't know. My friend took me to her favorite hang out when I was visiting and said she liked it because it was really easy to find me in the crowd.



thishereboi -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:52:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The problem is, DCN, my sense is that it's very, very difficult to convey what it feels like to have those feelings that members already-vulnerable groups get when one of their number has some hate-crime perpetrated on them.

Too true.

It hasn't escaped my notice that most of the posts in this thread appear to come from straight white men.


As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

But you don't think it would be kewel if their being locked up would send a msg that beating up lesbians would not be tolerated?




No, I think it would be good if it sent the message that beating up ANYONE will not be tolerated but hate crimes don't do that. They send the message that it is worse.



thishereboi -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 6:03:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

You forgot "If you're a woman, don't wear provocative clothing."



If a women told me she sat around worrying about being raped all the time I sure as hell would tell her not to wear provocative clothing. Then I would suggest she get counseling so she didn't sit around worrying about being raped all the time.



lovmuffin -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 6:07:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.



My other than straight white male persona happens to fall into one of the categories mentioned on this thread having the potential to be targeted for a hate crime. I pretty much see it just like boi does. Getting your ass beat for whatever reason sucks. I doubt if any particular law penalizing motives really has much effect deterring some ass from doing hateful shit to certain types of people. What we need to do is strike fear in the hearts of those who would perpetrate such crimes. If you find yourself being hunted down by a bunch of gay bashers, just shoot them.[8D]


If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.


I believe the two cretins that murdered James Byrd took
him from his business place not a redneck bar.
They purposefully searched out a black man to murder.
It wasn't a robbery. It was a racially motivated murder.
James Byrd was killed because he was black.

My uncle who is gay was brutally beaten by some
gay bashing thugs. He was hospitalized because of
his injuries.

I'm really to astonished at what you've written in this
post to say anything other than are you fucking serious?




No, I was not at all serious, can't you tell ? I would certainly never ever run around in some redneck town dressed in drag armed or otherwise. Whatever the tongue and cheek in that post though, there are some truths in there. If you look at what I wrote previously on this thread you can see exactly what I think about this issue in a serious tone.

This thread seems to have gone off the deep end so instead of repeating myself I used a few absurdities to illustrate other absurdities.

Yes, I get it. James Byrd was callously murdered. Would it have made any difference if those 2 cretins had dragged him to death because James owed them money ? I'm sorry about your uncle. I hope the idiots that did it got what they deserved.



Marc2b -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 6:45:09 AM)

Okay, so the Anglicans can be insulted but not the gays. The question then becomes: What constitutes an insult?

If I carry a sign to a gay pride rally that says "homosexuality is a sin" am I insulting gays? Some would say yes, others would say no. To me, the important point is that no physical harm is cause so I see no reason to curtail someone's rights in such an instance.

FTR: I am pro gay rights and very much against the agendas of religious fundamentalists. I use the above only as an example. Also, I was the fat kid in Junior High School so I know very well what it is like to be beaten down, trashed as scum and generally bullied.

For me the important point is that if we do not respect the rights of others - most especially those we do not like - then we have no basis upon which to assert our own rights.



Marc2b -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 6:56:34 AM)

Until very recently an insult specifically was considered hate speech in British law and notions of what constitutes threatening or harassing speech is still vague.

You insulted my intelligence in your last reply... can I consider that harassing?



thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 7:33:23 AM)

But you don't think it would be kewel if their being locked up would send a msg that beating up lesbians would not be tolerated?




quote:

No, I think it would be good if it sent the message that beating up ANYONE will not be tolerated but hate crimes don't do that. They send the message that it is worse.

We have laws that send the message that beating up anyone will not be tolerated. You seem to agree,that even though it has not stopped people from being beat, it is a good law.
Hate crime laws do not make the crime of beating someone worse it simply adds another crime to the charges. We have these special laws for cops too. Do you think those are wrong also?



fucktoyprincess -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 7:33:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.


?????? Was this intended as sarcasm. If not....

I categorically reject this type of blame the victim thinking. Just plain wrong.

Blacks, gays, drag queens are each a minority group in North America. Does this mean they should never go out in public anywhere, anytime unless they happen to be surrounded by people who are similar? So you want to create towns and cities with exclusively black neighborhoods, gay neighborhoods, drag queen neighborhoods with giant fences around them, so people will feel safe amongst their "own kind" (!!???) wtf How backwards is this thinking? Isn't this the way things were - and are we not trying to move towards a more inclusive society?? Oh right, I forgot there is a component of society that actually liked things they way they were.

I've gone to black jazz and r&b clubs before. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. I've gone to school and lived in neighborhoods that are mostly white. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. I dress provocatively as a female when I choose to do so. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. Your notion that I should just stay out of any situation where I am a minority is just plain absurd (or very bad sarcasm - and I can't figure out which).

In addition, from a legal perspective, the taking of another human being's life is categorized differently based on circumstances and intent. This is the way the law works. Intentionally killing someone is not considered the same type of crime as causing someone's death as the result of a car accident or the same as killing someone in self defense. All killings are NOT considered the same with respects to the gravity of the crime, and the associated punishment. Do you really believe in a system of law that treats all actions that result in death as absolutely equal? And once we admit that there are differences - the nuances do, actually matter.




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 7:36:59 AM)

Isn't the term "smart racist" an oxymoron???I mean if one were truley smart how could they be a racist?duuuhhh.


quote:

There are some pretty intelligent people that have been raised wrong by their parents and have some pretty messed up views. Those include racists.


"Smart people" do not do irrational things, if they do, then they by definition are not "smart people".




NotTellingUAgain -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 7:37:31 AM)

"Don't think it won't happen just because it hasn't happened yet." - Jackson Browne



fucktoyprincess -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 7:45:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotTellingUAgain

"Don't think it won't happen just because it hasn't happened yet." - Jackson Browne


Still not going to change my behavior patterns. Stupid to let fear dictate what you can and cannot do in life.

"Do one thing every day that scares you." Eleanor Roosevelt

"Fear is the mind killer." Frank Herbert

“Don't give in to your fears. If you do, you won't be able to talk to your heart.” Paulo Coelho



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