RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:13:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

My other issue is also with creating special classes of people that are protected more than others. I disagree with it on any scale, with the exceptions of minors as we are supposed to protect them more. If murder and assault laws were not being enforced, then the Justice Dept should come down hard (criminal charges and/or removal from office) on those that are supposed to apply the laws equitably, rather than create hate legislation.





Would you strip away the "special" protection the cops and postal workers enjoy?




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:22:11 PM)

quote:

The mother who lost her son to a random hit is not going to feel less pain than the one who lost her son because he was gay


You seem to have a pretty firm grasp of the obvious here.
quote:


and she is going to want the guy responsible to pay the same price for what he did.

Wouldn't that require you to be a mind reader
No, it's as obvious as the comment you agreed with above. Sorry you missed that.
This is english 1a.That two mothers would grieve for their dead children and feel similar levels of grief=firm grasp of the obvious.
That you are privy to what one of them thinks about the penalities involved requires the ability to read minds.
"Sorry you missed that.




lovmuffin -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:26:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

"gay guy get his ass beat down because he's gay, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get 10 years mandatory sentence because of a hate crime component. Your straight younger brother (same age as the gay guy) gets his ass beat down because he looked at the bashers funny like they were being disrespected or some such stupid ass shit, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get a 10 year sentence with parole hearings beginning after 5 years. They're out in 6. Does that really sound fair to you ?"


Apple and orange compared, there, LM. One's a family member, the other is not. No jail sentence is ever long enough for those who've committed heinous crimes on a member of one's own family.


LMAO..........ok, fair point so lets say he is some other straight guy unrelated. Is it fair that one basher gets 10 years mandatory and the other basher is out in 6 ?




OrionTheWolf -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:26:31 PM)

No ability to read minds, just empathy and common sense to theorize what they may think about it by placing yourself in the same situation.

Dead is dead, and the dead don't care anymore but the living get to see the worth of the dead. So if one life gets more punishment for it being taken than another, it shows that society is placing more value on that life being taken.




PeonForHer -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:31:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

My other issue is also with creating special classes of people that are protected more than others. I disagree with it on any scale, with the exceptions of minors as we are supposed to protect them more. If murder and assault laws were not being enforced, then the Justice Dept should come down hard (criminal charges and/or removal from office) on those that are supposed to apply the laws equitably, rather than create hate legislation.



One might say that 'hate crime laws' were created precisely to offset the fact that special classes of people, enjoying greater protection, had always existed. Upper class people more than middle class or working class; whites more than blacks; and so on.




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:32:39 PM)


quote:

All that tells people is one crime is worse than the other and it's not.

Actually it tells those who can read that two crimes are worse than one.
No it's not, it's saying you will face a stiffer penalty if they prove the motive was hate.


Lets try an analogy someone murders someone by running them down with a car. In the process they also knock down a light pole. They are charged with two crimes,murder and destruction of govt. property. They are charged with the distruction not because they hated the guy or the light pole. Two different charges two different crimes two different penalities. You may be too young to remember the days when little gay girls got strung up and butt fucked with a crowbar and those responsible got two weekends in jail for littering...now they can get 20 large...You are in a target group and yet you snivel about how you do not need protection that you will take your chances with the proven track record of the justice system when it comes to violence against minorities...That sounds more like the position of some troll trying to bring back the "good ol days" when "dem bitches" knew their place.
How do you explane your position, while claiming to be a member of a target group? I would be the first to agree that you can opt out but you have no right to seek to opt out for others in a target group.




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:34:23 PM)

quote:

If the law that you can't kill anyone doesn't work, what makes you thinking adding a few more years to the charge will make a difference?

Is it your position that since the law doesn't work it should be abolished?

I thought that was pretty clear from my posts.
From the quote above it would appear that you feel we should abolish the laws against murder since they have not stopped murder.




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:38:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No ability to read minds, just empathy and common sense to theorize what they may think about it by placing yourself in the same situation.

Dead is dead, and the dead don't care anymore but the living get to see the worth of the dead. So if one life gets more punishment for it being taken than another, it shows that society is placing more value on that life being taken.

Refusing to acknowledge that there are two crimes here and not one is the problem.
Consider the case of a serial killer...how do we punish them for each murder? If we can only execute him once or keep him in prison forever doesn't the sentence become diluted by the number of victims?How then is each victims life worth measured? Is this different than the false analogy presented?




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 3:41:40 PM)

Is it fair that one basher gets 10 years mandatory and the other basher is out in 6 ?

Two criminals one kills a guy the other kills a guy and robs him.
"Is it fair that one murderer gets 10 years manditory and the other murderer is out is 6?




evesgrden -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:13:33 PM)

FR


A hate crime is terrorism in the microcosm. It is the commission of a crime against someone because of their group affiliation. The Danes are not a "protected group", but if I held some sort of grudge against the Danes, and because of that malice I committed a crime against a Dane, any "someone", stranger or not, that would then be a hate crime, no?

The mere fact that a given person is Danish is my motive for... vandalism, murder, rape, libel.... any of that. It's a hate crime.


And there's something rather terrifying about group membership making any of us a target. Hence, terrorism. Just being an American, or being in the US. Being gay. Being jewish, black, .kinky, irish. Female. Serb, Croat, Sunis, Shiites, albino, living on the wrong side of the tracks....






/end random thoughts..





Politesub53 -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:15:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

It is already against the law to kill someone. If you get caught, you will go to jail. I would venture a guess that most people who kill don't believe they will get caught unless they are on a suicide run. So how will adding to the sentence change anything? Do you honestly think they are going to stop and think about the consequences before they take action? If that were true, there would be no crime.


Better to take some action to alleviate the problem, than none at all. [8|]




Please tell me where I ever suggested that there should be no action taken.

Do you even read the posts you reply to?


You have made your point clear, there shouldnt be any such thing as a hate crime, hence no action.
Its hardly rocket science is it.




Politesub53 -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:18:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Thats nonsense, at least under UK law. Hate speech laws are very specific.


So I can travel to the UK and proclaim that "Anglicans are fucktards!"?



Yes, indeed you can, an insult isnt hate speech. Just call me if you need extra help understanding the difference between the two.



Yea, that wasn't questioning his intelligence [8|]



No, it was questioning his post, allowed under the TOS. You really should learn the difference.




Politesub53 -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:25:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Care to back this up ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

Excerpt (emphasis mine):

Statutes

In England, Wales, and Scotland, the Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred, which is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.[6]

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 inserted Section 4A into the Public Order Act 1986. That part prohibits anyone from causing alarm or distress. Section 4A states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.[7]

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 amended the Public Order Act 1986 by adding Part 3A. That Part says, "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred." The Part protects freedom of expression by stating in Section 29J:

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 amended Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986. The amended Part 3A adds, for England and Wales, the offence of inciting hatred on the ground of sexual orientation. All the offences in Part 3 attach to the following acts: the use of words or behaviour or display of written material, publishing or distributing written material, the public performance of a play, distributing, showing or playing a recording, broadcasting or including a programme in a programme service, and possession of inflammatory material. In the circumstances of hatred based on religious belief or on sexual orientation, the relevant act (namely, words, behaviour, written material, or recordings, or programme) must be threatening and not just abusive or insulting.[8]

The Football Offences Act 1991 (amended by the Football (Offences and Disorder) Act 1999) forbids indecent or racialist chanting at designated football matches.[9]

Reform Section 5 campaign

In 2012 a campaign was launched by The Christian Institute to remove the word "insulting" from section 5 of the Public Order Act. The campaign was backed by a number of high profile activists including comedian Rowan Atkinson and former shadow home secretary David Davis. On the 12th of December 2012 the House of Lords voted in favor of amending the Public Order Act to remove the word "insulting". In January 2013 the government announced that it would not appeal the Lords decision to the House of Commons, despite having previously opposed it.


quote:

I didnt insult your intelligence, I simply pointed out the flaws in your post.


Oh yes you most certainly did when you suggested that I need help in understanding the difference between an insult and hate speech. It made me feel harassed, alarmed and distressed.


You still dont understand the hate laws, even though you posted them. Its not illegal to use such word on their own, IE name calling. It is illegal to use them in order to stir up racial hatred. That is indeed what was happening at football matches. It is also STILL illegal to use insulting words if a victim can be identified.

Most people will get this, some never will..... C`est La vie.




dcnovice -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:34:27 PM)

quote:

When I hear a story like this, it doesn't strike fear in my heart. I don't sit around and think OMG that could be me.

If only we lesser beings could live up to your shining example, what a better world it would be.




dcnovice -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:39:25 PM)

quote:

If a women told me she sat around worrying about being raped all the time I sure as hell would tell her not to wear provocative clothing. Then I would suggest she get counseling so she didn't sit around worrying about being raped all the time.


If a woman told me she sat around worrying about being raped all the time, I sure as hell would ask my landlord how a straw person got into my apartment.




Politesub53 -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 4:43:41 PM)

DC....... Brighton is a a city some 15 miles along the coast, its also hosts one of the biggest LGBT communities in the UK. Summer has been plagued with beatings, robberies and even a killing of a gay guy. Why does it happen ? Because they see gays as the butt of sniggers and jokes and consider them an easy target.

It sickens me people cant freely be who they want to be.




thompsonx -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:08:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

When I hear a story like this, it doesn't strike fear in my heart. I don't sit around and think OMG that could be me.

If only we lesser beings could live up to your shining example, what a better world it would be.


You lesser beings have most likely actually experienced this sort of shit and have a reason to have a little fear in your heart...
My opinion is that hate crime enhancement sentencing would make "a better world" more likely than the posturing of morons that feel it is perfectly ok to let cuzn' jim bob off with a couple of weekends in jail..."I mean after all he did leave all of that blood on the street....sumbody has to clean that shit up. Leavin' blood in the street is the same whether it is from a dead black or a dead white so there is no need to enhance this".




OrionTheWolf -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:08:24 PM)

You used the comment that people that do not want/agree/whatever with hate crime laws just want the days of being able to shoot someone they hate and be charged with improper discharge of a firearm. So I have countered that with the fact that new laws were not needed, especially if the old ones were not being upheld. Instead the laws should be forced to be upheld for all. You have since answered a hypothetical that supports my position that yelling a derogatory while punching them does not constitute a hate crime and instead it is the basis of the act, as well as try to obfuscate things by placing them in different areas that are not similar.

Just like below where I correct you yet again, and now you switch to the "but it is two crimes" line. So I will respond to that.

In most violent crime laws there is a graduation of violence. You do not charge someone that murdered someone with assault of any type, battery of any type, but only with the homicide. With hate crimes it is an add on law only, and not one that stands on it's own. The reason being is there are already laws against various forms of violence. We had to actually create and pass that law for the two crimes to be there, or should we say an additional element of an existing crime to be more accurate.

Now we have covered that. My stance is still the same and you have done nothing to refute it. Many say the hate crime laws came about because current laws were not being enforced, and you even eluded to that with the original comment to me. If the Justice Dept were to investigate and bring charges in those cases, then it would take care of the corrupt officials that are not doing their job. The Hate Crime laws are unneeded.

In your case of the serial killer they are all handled equally under the law. All of the ones that hold a conviction are being punished with equitable application of the law. 1 punishment divided by 10 victims would be each one gaining 10% of the outcome. In the next case 1 punishment divided by 5 victims would be 20% of the punishment. Each case is handled equitably. Now that this red herring is done, I suppose you will either disagree, offer another red herring or comparable obfuscation that does nothing to refute what I originally said.

I understand many that post here see the back and forth as some type of game, but circles is not a game I enjoy playing as it leads to no where.

Now where is the support for your statement that everyone that disagrees with hate crime laws just want the days of shooting a black and getting away with it back? That was the original disagreement. I can keep shooting the red herrings as you launch them, or point out when you side track but the return investments diminishes after a few times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No ability to read minds, just empathy and common sense to theorize what they may think about it by placing yourself in the same situation.

Dead is dead, and the dead don't care anymore but the living get to see the worth of the dead. So if one life gets more punishment for it being taken than another, it shows that society is placing more value on that life being taken.

Refusing to acknowledge that there are two crimes here and not one is the problem.
Consider the case of a serial killer...how do we punish them for each murder? If we can only execute him once or keep him in prison forever doesn't the sentence become diluted by the number of victims?How then is each victims life worth measured? Is this different than the false analogy presented?






dcnovice -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:09:06 PM)

quote:

Brighton is a a city some 15 miles along the coast,


I lived there once. [:)]

Sorry to hear about all the antigay attacks. My own bashing happened in London.




PeonForHer -> RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER (9/17/2013 5:27:32 PM)

Where in London, can I ask? I lived there for some years.




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