Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (Full Version)

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Gauge -> Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 5:30:39 PM)

In another thread my head nearly exploded because someone said that they simply expected their submissive to follow an uncommunicated example that they, as a dominant were setting. I felt it best to not continue to rant and rave and to regain my composure for what it is worth and start a new thread where I can rant and rave and not derail the other thread.

I have no doubt that this has been discussed before, but it has never been discussed by me... so you are either in for a treat or you are going to want to choke me to death by the time this is all over.

The excerpt of my rant begins here and I shall continue my thoughts after this short break from reality:

quote:


Let's go back to the beginning shall we? Anyone will tell you right here and now that communication is key to any relationship. Anyone will tell you that. What we do is a relationship that requires some very in-depth communication, in fact, some communication on a level that vanilla relationships may never understand. Why the hell do people think that being a dominant means that the relationship part of this goes flying out of the window and that through simple osmosis our submissives will just know what it is we want out of them? In my not so fucking humble opinion, if you do what I just said, you are setting them up for failure. Now, if you are that unimaginitive that you must create scenarios where your submissive will ultimately fail so you can punish them because they cannot read your mind, you are insane. I dare say that if you take a survey of the submissives and slaves that are in relationships currently, all their dominant have to say is punishment and their hearts sink because they let their dominant down. Setting anyone up to fail is cruel. Maybe I have this whole dominant thing wrong. Maybe I was mistaken in thinking that it is more important to build someone up than it is to make them feel like a failure. Maybe I should only seek to punish someone instead of play with them and use them for my own twisted pleasure.


I must make a few points before I turn myself over to the mercy of the community. Oh, and the type of punishment I am talking about is never, ever in anger and always has an object lesson in mind.

I understand "play" punishment" what I am discussing here is punishment for an error. Something that was communicated clearly and when everything else fails to correct the problem, then some sort of punishment needs to be used to allow the submissive the chance to reflect on the problem and to understand that after conventional relationship communication has failed to correct things, something more may drive the point home in a more clear manner. For instance, in my last relationship, my slave was going around and telling people something that I had explained to her, with clarity, that I did not want discussed with anyone outside of just her and I. When I found out about it I was calm, didn't yell, and just explained my reasons again as to why I did not want this information to come out until I was ready for it to be known. This happened a second time and yes, I was upset, not angry, just upset. I felt an object lesson for punishment was in order. I told her that because she did not listen to me the first two times that I was disappointed with her behavior and that she would be punished. I told her that I would be taping her mouth shut because she could not keep her mouth closed on her own and putting her in a closet, bound, on her knees and that I would not let her out until she was fully ready to comply with my wishes. Of course she protested, but I told her that she should have thought about this and respected my request before it came to something like this. I kept her in the closet for about an hour and a half. Of course I checked on her a lot to make sure she was fine during that time.. and she would have been able to get out if she absolutely had to... so I was sure she was safe in case a 10 ton weight fell on me. When it was over, I took her out and before I released her fully, I took off the tape and asked her if she understood why she was punished and why she should respect my wishes. She did understand and I released her, and we sat and talked about it for a long time afterward. Maybe I could have handled it differently but I thought it worked out OK. That is punishment to me. The rest is play. I feel that punishment without a lesson behind it is useless.

Is it not the responsibility of the dominant to build up and encourage their submissive? Should it not be a rare thing that punishment finally has to be resorted to? Communication is vital to allow the submissive to flourish in their service, is it not? Am I not understanding something here? I would think that a submissive that is set up for failure would eventually have enough bullshit and pull the plug on the relationship... or is there something that I am not grasping?

I am sure that I have a ton of explaining to do because I have said a whole lot of things, and of course someone is going to chastise me for my punishment example so have at it. But please try and understand that my inquiry is sincere and I really would like some insight as to how submissives and dominants feel about the role of punishment that is not part of their "play".

Too Long Didn't Read? Sorry, no way to shorten this.



FelineRanger -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 5:47:04 PM)

Since I didn't see the original post that nearly made your head explode, I can't comment on that. But I do agree completely with you that punishment also absolutely must be accompanied by an explanation and, more importantly, a rehabilitation of the unwanted behavior. I actually had some experience with a situation where I was expected to follow an uncommunicated example. The problem is that I was in prison, not merely in a relationship, and the uncommunicated example ran completely counter to my personality. And, yes, I was either in trouble for some bullshit or constantly under scrutiny by the corrections officers. Essentially, I was set up to fail intentionally. After that experience, my opinion is that if some "Dom" is going to create that kind of atmosphere for his sub, he is unworthy of both the title and the sub.



littlewonder -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 6:02:20 PM)

Master punishes me when I've done something willfully wrong...not because something was an accident, not because he set me up, but because I willfully disobeyed him. Yup, most of the time the worst punishment is simply knowing he's upset with me. That kills me. He doesn't even have to say a word or give me a look. I know.

Now, that's not to say he doesn't set me up to fail sometimes...he does but come on! He's a sadist! [8D] He gets a good, evil time out of it. But he doesn't do it to have a reason to punish me. He just likes to see me suffer. It gives him pleasure. Hrmph. [:-] It's definitely not punishment though. It's just pure fun for him. Why would we call it something it's not?




metamorfosis -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 8:01:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Let's go back to the beginning shall we? Anyone will tell you right here and now that communication is key to any relationship. Anyone will tell you that.


Well no, not absolutely anyone. I'm confident there are people out there to disagree with most any generalisation you could make about the key(s) to a successful relationship.




AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 8:02:10 PM)

The purpose of punishment is to strengthen our dynamic. Simple as that. If it doesn't work to make the relationship better then we've messed up somewhere. It absolutely does not and should not replace good old-fashioned responsible communication.

Punishment without mutual regard and respect only really works on a superficial level - either the receiver modifies his/her behaviour when at risk of punishment but slips back when they can get away with it, or the punishment is so disproportionately severe that the person would never risk it. Either way, it doesn't change the underlying issues or beliefs that caused the behaviour. For me then, punishments (even ones that are extremely unpleasant) are primarily symbolic because the real relationship work needs to take place whether you punish or not. It frustrates me when people inevitably imply that a dynamic that includes punishment means the submissive behaves like a child and/or the dominant is a brute whose power comes only from physical force.

I will add that for us, punishment is tremendously helpful for me as the submissive. I appreciate the ritual, the clarity, and the suffering. It gives me a point of sharp focus and a sense of absolution; I tend to worry and fret and the punishment dynamic helps to relieve that. It is also a re-confirmation of our commitment to each other and our dynamic. His participation says that I am still worth the investment of his time to enforce the rules, and my participation tells him that I still want to follow him, even when it is hard.

Not every punishment is a big deal with serious relationship talks for us though. Sometimes a milder form of punishment is used as added incentive when attempting to break a bad habit. I procrastinate and I'm naturally a slob. Amazing how the threat of an unpleasant consequence motivates me to work on those flaws.

There is no punishment for mistakes, miscommunication and life unexpectedly getting in the way. I didn't see the other thread yet, but I wouldn't hand myself over to someone who expected me to follow rules I was never told about. Cute kinky game for an afternoon, but no way to run a relationship.



Gauge -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 8:54:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Let's go back to the beginning shall we? Anyone will tell you right here and now that communication is key to any relationship. Anyone will tell you that.


Well no, not absolutely anyone. I'm confident there are people out there to disagree with most any generalisation you could make about the key(s) to a successful relationship.




Of course you are right. See what happens when I write something when my head is going to explode? I use sweeping generalizations which I know better than to use.



NuevaVida -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 10:04:43 PM)

I am very rarely punished, and never for a mistake, miscommunication, unforeseen circumstances or misunderstanding.

I did have a mouth taping experience once - in my case it was because I delayed telling him something I should have, out of fear (the relationship was still pretty new and I wasn't so secure in it yet and didn't know how he'd react). He told me since I had chosen not to talk, then I didn't get to talk now. So he duct taped my mouth, and told me he understood why I did what I did, and why I was afraid to tell him about it for a week. And then he left me alone in the room for about an hour. When he came back and removed the tape, we talked about it, and the result was that I had a lot more trust that he cared about me and understood me.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the whole "punishment in anger" thing, as long as the anger is controlled. It's just an emotion. If it's being taken out on me, well then it gets scary but he's controlled enough to know he's angry and still do what he needs to, without harming anyone.

As for mind reading? I'm afraid I'm just not that talented. I can be pretty intuitive, though, and after several years together I have a pretty good idea of what he wants from me without him even saying it. But if I have to guess at what he wants then I have a 50/50 chance of failing and if he chooses to punish me for that I'm going to end up resenting him and I'll eventually go away.

He does do things to me that others use as punishment, but he doesn't do it for punishment, he does it for his enjoyment (like keep me in the closet, make me cry, etc.). But it's always clear that's what's going on - he's just enjoying himself.

As for communicating, I don't think it's ever been a problem for us. We talk about anything that needs talking about, and I'm always at liberty to put something on the table that I need to discuss. Conversely, he will bring things up that need talking about, too. Expressing ourselves to each other is not an issue here.



LadyPact -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 10:49:18 PM)

Gauge, is there any way that you would be willing to link the reference thread? If not that, would you be willing to send it via private email? It's a good topic, but I'd rather reserve My remarks until I've got the additional information.

Which rather makes this post off topic, doesn't it? If so, My apologies.



metamorfosis -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 11:14:44 PM)

Pretty sure it was in response to this:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4547804



Gauge -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 11:27:15 PM)

I am a little tired so I am going to try to respond to some people tomorrow.


quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

Pretty sure it was in response to this:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4547804


Yep, that's the thread.



LadyPact -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/17/2013 11:54:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis
Pretty sure it was in response to this:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4547804

Thank you, pam. Much appreciated.




KnightofMists -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 6:55:46 AM)

First..... Communication is just that communication... More or deeper doesn't make it better. 5 minutes or five hours. Talk about one thin or a thousan things. It really only matters if it is effective to promoting and enhancing the people and their relationship. Otherwise. It's just talk.

Secondly, I don't punish. There are lots of reasons why people punish. For every single reason I have heard or learned about, I have found or know a more effective way to get the result...... I prefer the method that is the most effective to give me the desired result.

Each to their own. If I ever find a result that will be most effectively achieved by the use of punishment I will use it. Until then its a tool that rust in the bottom of my tool box.



Greta75 -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 7:44:11 AM)

I like "play punishment", as someone who is sadistic and does punishing things to you because he can and enjoys it and his doing it to someone who is pretending it's punishment, but actually is enjoying it.
But I actually dislike real punishment, then again, I can never be a slave. Am just a bottom, I like being equals outside of play, and punishment does not suit that concept.



LadyPact -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 8:20:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Is it not the responsibility of the dominant to build up and encourage their submissive? Should it not be a rare thing that punishment finally has to be resorted to? Communication is vital to allow the submissive to flourish in their service, is it not? Am I not understanding something here? I would think that a submissive that is set up for failure would eventually have enough bullshit and pull the plug on the relationship... or is there something that I am not grasping?

I am sure that I have a ton of explaining to do because I have said a whole lot of things, and of course someone is going to chastise me for my punishment example so have at it. But please try and understand that my inquiry is sincere and I really would like some insight as to how submissives and dominants feel about the role of punishment that is not part of their "play".

Too Long Didn't Read? Sorry, no way to shorten this.

To answer the part that I put in bold, ummmm, yeah. If it's gotten to the point where I'm punishing frequently, there is something so wrong in the dynamic, or a bunch of somethings, that makes Me have to question if the dynamic is viable. I've never given a punishment that didn't have some form of willful, deliberate disobedience associated as the root cause for it coming to that, and in My world that means we're looking at who's will is the one the person wants to follow.

Communication. This is going to be unpopular, but honestly, there's certain stuff that I feel I should only have to say once. I put these things in the "your momma should have taught you" category. Don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, don't act an ass in public...... Stuff of that nature. That's not debate and it's not discussion. If it's something I wouldn't have tolerated from My kids when they were growing up, it's not going to fly from somebody on the s side of the slash.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 8:41:35 AM)

I'm going to just speak to the part that caught my eye and break it down, a bit ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Is it not the responsibility of the dominant to build up and encourage their submissive?



Of course it is but since when is discipline (if done, correctly) a bad thing?

I think any partner, in any kind of relationship wants to please their partner to one degree or another. Because of the nature of our relationships, though, I think that there's a built-in disparity.

Now, I think your idea of direction before "punishment" is really good. I ascribe to it, myself. I believe that this is where some people go astray. Let me give an example:

Before my current lady gave herself to me, we discussed many things (I'll get to communication, later, I promise). One of the things that I told her was that there is no reason for a lady to light her own cigarette, when a gentleman is in the vaccinity. This was something she actually had some trouble "regressing" to.

Every time she lit her own cigarette, I reminded her. I told her that by her, not giving me the opportunity to be a gentleman, she was doing me a dis-service. She understood this but, would still, occasionally, light up, on her own.

On our fourth date, she did it and I reached out (slowly and gently) and took the cigarette out of her mouth and told her that she could have her next one, when I lit one for myself. I also said that while she was having her nicotine jones, she could think about what we'd discussed about this behavior.

Was that a "punishment"? I think so. Was I over the line? I certainly don't think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Should it not be a rare thing that punishment finally has to be resorted to?



As in my example above, I guess it depends upon how we're defining punishment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Communication is vital to allow the submissive to flourish in their service, is it not?



I could not agree more and I think there are a number of people in this lifestyle that need to write that, one hundred times ... a day!

I have said for a very long time that if a lady has truly submitted to me, once I have made my wishes clear, things should run smoothly.

Obviously, there are going to be things that I want that she doesn't think is a good idea and we discuss these things, at length, if necessary and we develop a "plan of action".

I expect her to voice any concerns or hesitations, etc. so that I can make an informed decision but, once we've done all of that, it should be nothing but blue skies and following winds.

Sun Tzu wrote: "If the orders are not clear, it is the fault of the general." Pretty straight-forward, that. I often hear dominants bitch that their submissives expect them to be "mind readers". That may or may not be true but, why would a dominant behave in such a manner as to not make their instructions clear?

When the orders are clear, that is where (in my mind) "punishment" needs to occur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Am I not understanding something here?



I'm not trying to be snarky here but I think the only thing you're "not getting" is that there's eight horses in a race for a reason.

I guess some ladies respond well to being "kept on their toes" and the uncertainty of making the wrong choice. I don't know. I know it doesn't work for me, either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

I would think that a submissive that is set up for failure would eventually have enough bullshit and pull the plug on the relationship... or is there something that I am not grasping?



I think anyone who is set up for failure is bound to live down to those expectations but I also believe that people can rise to an occasion, also. I see it, all the time.

I mentioned communication and making orders clear. I am always pleasantly surprised when I say something in passing - something we haven't had a big sit-down about - and she treats it as if it's her "marching orders".

Before my lady and I moved in together, I mentioned that I really like having Swiss cheese in the house to snack on. Since we've moved in, I don't think there's been a day when there hasn't been some Swiss cheese in my refrigerator.

I think, when it comes to relationships, communication is exactly like sex - it's not important ... unless you're not getting any.



slavekate80 -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 9:22:23 AM)


quote:


Is it not the responsibility of the dominant to build up and encourage their submissive? Should it not be a rare thing that punishment finally has to be resorted to? Communication is vital to allow the submissive to flourish in their service, is it not? Am I not understanding something here? I would think that a submissive that is set up for failure would eventually have enough bullshit and pull the plug on the relationship... or is there something that I am not grasping?


In most relationships, yes, but not every relationship dynamic is going to include building up the sub and encouraging him/her. Some people have a very low need for external encouragement, or it may take on a form that's not obvious as encouragement to someone outside that relationship.

I disagree that punishment should be rare. Again, it depends on the people involved. I like it when it's fairly frequent, because it makes it strikingly clear when I've screwed up and I learn fastest by negative reinforcement. Rewards are far less effective for me - I'm more motivated to avoid the stick than get the carrot, so to speak. Rewards feel like bribery and it throws off the dynamic. I also have a tendency to worry that if I displease someone, he'll just throw me away and seek someone else. Punishment lets me know specifically what I need to correct or stop doing, and reassures me that he still wants me as long as I'm making an honest effort, otherwise he wouldn't bother punishing me and would show me the door instead.

Maybe some people live by different definitions of "failure." Not anticipating the Dom(me)'s needs and wants could be considered failure, if that's how their relationship is set up. For a very mild example, if I'm supposed to have dinner hot and ready at 6, and he says something came up and he's not going to be there until 8, I can figure out on my own that this means have dinner ready at 8 without that being spelled out for me. Other people's figure-it-out-yourself threshholds might be different, so something falling under "lack of communication" for Pat and Taylor could well be "expecting perceptiveness" for Lee and Terry, and Pat/Taylor's adequate communication is Lee/Terry's excessive micromanagement.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 9:56:17 AM)

Not all D/s relationships incorporate a corporal punishment dynamic, but I would say most of them have a discipline dynamic. Discipline is defined as:

training (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.

Submissives are expected to adopt a code of behavior, to learn (be trained in) what the rules are (my definition of training) and must know to break the rules has consequences.

I disciplined my kids, though rarely punished them and even more rarely was that physical. When I kept dogs I rarely punished them. Lots of encouragement and rewards for good behavior work far better in most circumstances. Of course, this only work if you understand kids are kids and not mini adults.

When it comes to adults, I can't see a circumstance where physical punishment is preferable to communication.

In my mind, punishment that is doled out too often doesn't work. It's also detrimental to the relationship, since it puts the couple at odds instead of working together as a team.



KnightofMists -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 10:39:01 AM)

Just a thought to put out there.

I find many confuse punishment with accountability.

I believe in a successful authority dynamic accountability should be consistent, immediate and reasonable to the behaviour in question. Accountability is not punishment. It is but one tool to use in the effort of achieving accountability in a dynamic. Accountability is not just about changing a given behaviour but to reinforce behaviour as well. When accountability is maintained to a high degree, I find the appropriate behaviours are achieved and maintained with less effort than is required when accountability is unpredictable and unreliable.






Gauge -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 1:17:56 PM)

quote:

I was set up to fail intentionally. After that experience, my opinion is that if some "Dom" is going to create that kind of atmosphere for his sub, he is unworthy of both the title and the sub.


Powerful story, and I agree.

quote:

Not every punishment is a big deal with serious relationship talks for us though. Sometimes a milder form of punishment is used as added incentive when attempting to break a bad habit. I procrastinate and I'm naturally a slob. Amazing how the threat of an unpleasant consequence motivates me to work on those flaws.


Is punishment the right word to capture the essential meaning of this dynamic? Or would discipline be better? For me, I see a distinct difference. Both are teaching tools, but one is correcting bad behavior and the other is reinforcing and assisting to correct something that your dominant would like to see change.

quote:

I don't necessarily have a problem with the whole "punishment in anger" thing, as long as the anger is controlled. It's just an emotion. If it's being taken out on me, well then it gets scary but he's controlled enough to know he's angry and still do what he needs to, without harming anyone.


I used to have a wicked temper when I was young. I changed that within myself and now I am more calm than I have ever been. I should have made the distinction between controlled and uncontrolled anger. I can control my anger very well and I would never ever punish a submissive if that anger was out of control. I would wait until I had calmed down enough to make certain that the anger was channeled constructively rather than destructively.

quote:

First..... Communication is just that communication... More or deeper doesn't make it better. 5 minutes or five hours. Talk about one thin or a thousan things. It really only matters if it is effective to promoting and enhancing the people and their relationship. Otherwise. It's just talk.


I agree. Talking is one thing. Communication is an exchange.

quote:

Communication. This is going to be unpopular, but honestly, there's certain stuff that I feel I should only have to say once. I put these things in the "your momma should have taught you" category. Don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, don't act an ass in public...... Stuff of that nature. That's not debate and it's not discussion. If it's something I wouldn't have tolerated from My kids when they were growing up, it's not going to fly from somebody on the s side of the slash.


No, I agree with you. Don't shit on the carpet isn't something I should ever have to say. What I am talking about is stuff that is outside the realm of the rules of basic human conduct.

quote:

Of course it is but since when is discipline (if done, correctly) a bad thing?


I should have made the distinction between punishment and discipline in my OP.

quote:

I'm not trying to be snarky here but I think the only thing you're "not getting" is that there's eight horses in a race for a reason.


That was not even remotely close to snarky. I am fully aware that the whole "different strokes" applies and the abstract nature of our common terminology is only really defined by each individual.

quote:

I disagree that punishment should be rare. Again, it depends on the people involved. I like it when it's fairly frequent, because it makes it strikingly clear when I've screwed up and I learn fastest by negative reinforcement. Rewards are far less effective for me - I'm more motivated to avoid the stick than get the carrot, so to speak. Rewards feel like bribery and it throws off the dynamic. I also have a tendency to worry that if I displease someone, he'll just throw me away and seek someone else. Punishment lets me know specifically what I need to correct or stop doing, and reassures me that he still wants me as long as I'm making an honest effort, otherwise he wouldn't bother punishing me and would show me the door instead.


Of course this varies by individual. I guess what I would do when punishing an intentional transgression is different than what I would do for discipline for breaking a rule. Punishment to me is something that is both difficult and caring at the same time and I consider it an "event" rather than a relational dynamic. Rule breaking to me is totally different and should be dealt with swiftly, but without the harshness and solemn nature of punishment.


I want to thank everyone so far for their input so far. This is helping me to reinforce my own definitions and stance on the relational dynamic. I apologize for poor wording or vague statements, sometimes the ideas are totally clear in my head but somehow loose their emphasis when I try to wrap them in words.




noellesdestiny -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 2:43:13 PM)

Once communication is established, trusting in punishment is possible. I find that punishment for me has always been a learning experience, and I try hard to not repeat the error.



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