RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 12:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But what part of 'Reality' don't 'conservatives' understand? They are borrowing and spending at massively destructive levels. With medical costs at a ridiculous amount now, Obamacare is not the answer! OK, we have the most expensive health care in the world and it's about #20 when it comes to quality. What's the answer? Unfortunately, the R controlled house has no clue. While more people will be covered under Obamacare, the most expensive health care in the world will be getting even more expensive. That was what the Forbes' article pointed out. What you said has absolutely nothing to do with my post. I wasn't, nor have I ever advocated Obamacare. My post was about the problem the R side has with running around yelling "this is bad, this is horrible" without offering up anything resembling an alternative. Sure it does. We have the most expensive health care in the world. We are in agreement on that. Whether the GOP has the answers, I have no idea (their ideas are supported by many and refuted by many). But, their opposition to Obamacare certainly shows they have some sort of clue. Care is going to get that much more expensive as we continue down this road. I believe the article points out that it's going to be almost 20% GDP by 2030 or so.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 12:49:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri But, their opposition to Obamacare certainly shows they have some sort of clue. Are you sure about that? So far, all I've seen them say is that anything the other people say or do is bad. Do you remember them saying that "Our #1 priority is to make Obama a 1 term president"? Not running the country Not getting us out of the sandbox Not creating jobs Not lowering the deficit Not making Americans safe from terrorists. Not fixing the decrepit infrastructure The #1 priority was to fight Obama at every turn and make sure he never accomplishes anything. That doesn't sound like people who have a fucking clue. Seriously, how many times have they tried to repeal it without offering an alternative? Are they up to 40 yet? Let it run and if it's as ruinous as they say it is, the American people will beg them to come into power and take it away. I think the Republicans are deathly afraid that it just might work and they'll be well and truly fucked.

mnottertail -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 12:50:32 PM)
aging population, fancier treatments, I would not be taking too big a winger to say that with or without Obamacare (and hopefully subsequent fixing legislations) it will become spendier .

DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 8:05:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail aging population, fancier treatments, I would not be taking too big a winger to say that with or without Obamacare (and hopefully subsequent fixing legislations) it will become spendier Thanks for agreeing that Obamacare isn't going to control the costs of health care and make health care affordable.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 8:18:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri But, their opposition to Obamacare certainly shows they have some sort of clue. Are you sure about that? So far, all I've seen them say is that anything the other people say or do is bad. Do you remember them saying that "Our #1 priority is to make Obama a 1 term president"? Not running the country Not getting us out of the sandbox Not creating jobs Not lowering the deficit Not making Americans safe from terrorists. Not fixing the decrepit infrastructure The #1 priority was to fight Obama at every turn and make sure he never accomplishes anything. That doesn't sound like people who have a fucking clue. Seriously, how many times have they tried to repeal it without offering an alternative? Are they up to 40 yet? Let it run and if it's as ruinous as they say it is, the American people will beg them to come into power and take it away. I think the Republicans are deathly afraid that it just might work and they'll be well and truly fucked. They are running the country, or are to their best ability considering the Senate and Executive Branch aren't politically aligned with them. The GOP isn't sending troops into the sandbox in defiance of the Senate and President. Conservatives disagree with Liberals on "how" best to create jobs (or, more accurately, to create an environment that will foster an increase in employment). The Democrats aren't helping the Republicans, either. Either party can blame it on the other. Not going to do a damn bit of good, though. The deficit won't be lowered until spending is decreased. That is something they are trying to do. Democrats don't want to cut spending appreciably, but want to raise tax rates to increase revenue. Same goal, different methods. How are they not making Americans safe from terrorists?!? WTF?!? Is it really the duty of the Federal Government to replace/repair the aging infrastructure? I can only agree that it's their duty when it's a Federal road, else it's up to the State, County, City, etc. Better question would be why has our infrastructure been allowed to decay as much as it has? You really believe the GOP wasn't going to go along with Obama on anything, no matter what? Seriously? Obamacare isn't going to work. Obamacare isn't going to make health care affordable. All it does is shift costs onto the wallets of those who make more money. Democrats will always blame Republicans. Republicans will always blame Democrats. If Democrats won't pass (if they even discuss or vote on it) a bill passed in the House, how is it that it's the GOP's fault and not the Senate Democrats? How is it the House GOP's fault when they won't pass (if they even discuss or vote on it) a bill passed in the Senate? At some point in time, you have see that neither party is blameless and that both parties share the blame, and that the shares are pretty much equal.

DsBound -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 10:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But what part of 'Reality' don't 'conservatives' understand? They are borrowing and spending at massively destructive levels. With medical costs at a ridiculous amount now, Obamacare is not the answer! OK, we have the most expensive health care in the world and it's about #20 when it comes to quality. What's the answer? Unfortunately, the R controlled house has no clue. First off, end the monopoly... if we were able to truly shop for insurance, they would have to become competitive instead of it being a free for all. The government needs to get out if it. Shoot, they can't take care of their current "to do" list and were eager for them to control our medical? I wish I had all the answers, but I do know mandating people to purchase goods in order to be in good standing with mother government is not the answer. Most people I know will not be able to afford this, and will be fined.

Phydeaux -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/23/2013 10:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But what part of 'Reality' don't 'conservatives' understand? They are borrowing and spending at massively destructive levels. With medical costs at a ridiculous amount now, Obamacare is not the answer! OK, we have the most expensive health care in the world and it's about #20 when it comes to quality. What's the answer? Unfortunately, the R controlled house has no clue. While more people will be covered under Obamacare, the most expensive health care in the world will be getting even more expensive. That was what the Forbes' article pointed out. What you said has absolutely nothing to do with my post. I wasn't, nor have I ever advocated Obamacare. My post was about the problem the R side has with running around yelling "this is bad, this is horrible" without offering up anything resembling an alternative. Sure it does. We have the most expensive health care in the world. We are in agreement on that. Whether the GOP has the answers, I have no idea (their ideas are supported by many and refuted by many). But, their opposition to Obamacare certainly shows they have some sort of clue. Care is going to get that much more expensive as we continue down this road. I believe the article points out that it's going to be almost 20% GDP by 2030 or so. People say we have the most expensive health care in the world as if this is an unalloyed bad thing. When you live in a third world country - the vast majority of your money gets spend on food, shelter. As your country and yourself move up the ladder, you spend less and less time (money) on food, and shelter and start spending it on things like fast food, fast cars, fast women, and... healthcare. The amount of money that we have to spend on healthcare is more a reflection on the amount of money we have; and the desirability of our health care options; rather than soley an unreasonable cost.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 5:11:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Sure it does. We have the most expensive health care in the world. We are in agreement on that. Whether the GOP has the answers, I have no idea (their ideas are supported by many and refuted by many). But, their opposition to Obamacare certainly shows they have some sort of clue. Care is going to get that much more expensive as we continue down this road. I believe the article points out that it's going to be almost 20% GDP by 2030 or so. People say we have the most expensive health care in the world as if this is an unalloyed bad thing. When you live in a third world country - the vast majority of your money gets spend on food, shelter. As your country and yourself move up the ladder, you spend less and less time (money) on food, and shelter and start spending it on things like fast food, fast cars, fast women, and... healthcare. The amount of money that we have to spend on healthcare is more a reflection on the amount of money we have; and the desirability of our health care options; rather than soley an unreasonable cost. If you look at the actual costs of individual care procedures, we are spending a lot more than other countries. Is the MRI we get that much better than that gotten elsewhere? Are the physicians here that much better? New tech is always more expensive. I get that. How much did it cost, initially, for laser eye surgery? That shit was expensive as Hell. Now, it's cheap, in comparison. For certain outcomes we are getting what we are paying for. For other outcomes, we aren't. Medical bankruptcies will show that we don't have as much money to spend on health care.

mnottertail -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 6:09:54 AM)
quote: People say we have the most expensive health care in the world as if this is an unalloyed bad thing. They say it because it is an unalloyed bad thing.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 6:14:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri But, their opposition to Obamacare certainly shows they have some sort of clue. Are you sure about that? So far, all I've seen them say is that anything the other people say or do is bad. Do you remember them saying that "Our #1 priority is to make Obama a 1 term president"? Not running the country Not getting us out of the sandbox Not creating jobs Not lowering the deficit Not making Americans safe from terrorists. Not fixing the decrepit infrastructure The #1 priority was to fight Obama at every turn and make sure he never accomplishes anything. That doesn't sound like people who have a fucking clue. Seriously, how many times have they tried to repeal it without offering an alternative? Are they up to 40 yet? Let it run and if it's as ruinous as they say it is, the American people will beg them to come into power and take it away. I think the Republicans are deathly afraid that it just might work and they'll be well and truly fucked. They are running the country, or are to their best ability considering the Senate and Executive Branch aren't politically aligned with them. The GOP isn't sending troops into the sandbox in defiance of the Senate and President. Conservatives disagree with Liberals on "how" best to create jobs (or, more accurately, to create an environment that will foster an increase in employment). The Democrats aren't helping the Republicans, either. Either party can blame it on the other. Not going to do a damn bit of good, though. The deficit won't be lowered until spending is decreased. That is something they are trying to do. Democrats don't want to cut spending appreciably, but want to raise tax rates to increase revenue. Same goal, different methods. How are they not making Americans safe from terrorists?!? WTF?!? Is it really the duty of the Federal Government to replace/repair the aging infrastructure? I can only agree that it's their duty when it's a Federal road, else it's up to the State, County, City, etc. Better question would be why has our infrastructure been allowed to decay as much as it has? You really believe the GOP wasn't going to go along with Obama on anything, no matter what? Seriously? Obamacare isn't going to work. Obamacare isn't going to make health care affordable. All it does is shift costs onto the wallets of those who make more money. Democrats will always blame Republicans. Republicans will always blame Democrats. If Democrats won't pass (if they even discuss or vote on it) a bill passed in the House, how is it that it's the GOP's fault and not the Senate Democrats? How is it the House GOP's fault when they won't pass (if they even discuss or vote on it) a bill passed in the Senate? At some point in time, you have see that neither party is blameless and that both parties share the blame, and that the shares are pretty much equal. Point = Totally Missed I didn't say they weren't trying to do those things, I said it was not their #1 priority. Their stated #1 priority was 'to make the president a 1 termer'. In January of '09, there were at least 100 things more important to the country than that but "One Term President" was the #1 priority. instead of: running the country getting us out of the sandbox creating jobs lowering the deficit making Americans safe from terrorists. fixing the decrepit infrastructure C'mon man, you have much better reading comprehension than that. You said they were and are trying to run the country. Are you sure you didn't simply make a typo and misspell 'ruin'?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 6:20:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux People say we have the most expensive health care in the world as if this is an unalloyed bad thing. When it's about #20 in quality, that's downright shitty. Let's put it in terms of cars. What would you say about the American Auto industry if Americans (except the very wealthy) were forced to drive Yugos and pay 80K each for them while the rest of industrialized world was driving Mercedes, Porches, Jaguars, Beemers, Cadillacs, Audis, etc and paying 20K to 60K for them? You'd be screaming. Now US health care isn't quite a Yugo but it's no better than a Chevy Cavalier and we're paying for a Lotus. What ever happened to "you get what you pay for"? The American public doesn't.

Phydeaux -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 6:43:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux People say we have the most expensive health care in the world as if this is an unalloyed bad thing. When it's about #20 in quality, that's downright shitty. Let's put it in terms of cars. What would you say about the American Auto industry if Americans (except the very wealthy) were forced to drive Yugos and pay 80K each for them while the rest of industrialized world was driving Mercedes, Porches, Jaguars, Beemers, Cadillacs, Audis, etc and paying 20K to 60K for them? You'd be screaming. Now US health care isn't quite a Yugo but it's no better than a Chevy Cavalier and we're paying for a Lotus. What ever happened to "you get what you pay for"? The American public doesn't. Regarding 80K Yugos: If we had 80K yugos we were forced to pay for I'd say we just bailed out GM. Oh right. We did that. Probably 80% of all medical innovations are developed in the US. Look, I'm not saying there aren't problems with the current system. But you're saying lets make the current system better by making prices go... up? Look, you have 33 million uninsured with our current costs. Do you think that you will have less uninsured when costs go up? Even with the threat of law, people are not going to pay $500 a month that they can't afford. Final thought: you (generic) don't want a system where you get what you pay for. You(generic) want a system where someone else pays for what you (generic) get.

mnottertail -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 6:45:38 AM)
Probably not. Why are costs going up? We have the most expensive healthcare in the world, with a middling outcome. Where is the money going? It is not going to outcome.

Phydeaux -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:18:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Probably not. Why are costs going up? We have the most expensive healthcare in the world, with a middling outcome. Where is the money going? It is not going to outcome. Why are costs going up? Huge health care conglomerates are raising prices. Because there are too few doctor's offices competing. because federal regulations means the average cost of delivering a new drug in the us exceed 700 million. because threat of tort action makes doctors practice defensive medicine. because consumers have no incentive to shop for the best price/services. Since they don't pay for it, they go for the "best" care. because hospitals pass the costs of the uninsured onto those that are insured, or pay cash. And none of these things is obamacare resolving.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:28:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux But you're saying lets make the current system better by making prices go... up? No I'm not. Once again, I do not support Obamacare. If you've read my posts, you'd note I don't particularly support Obama. (unless you call referring to him as the least effective president in a couple of generations support) I'm saying that the system is badly broken and the Republicans who control the house would rather see the whole country go down in flames than fix it because they're afraid he might get some inkling of credit.

thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:30:21 AM)
Well they need something to balance out the lefts planks. Try to extend the abortion limit to a week after birth. Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: Tax the hell out of the people. Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: Dismantle the defense system. Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: ban all guns Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: complain that the government is too small Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: make Christianity a crime. Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: Oppose anything the right proposes. Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: Not too concerned about immigration. Just open the borders and let them in. After all the government can pay for them since they have unlimited funds. Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit?

thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:34:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: papassion What part of "REALITY" don't Liberals understand? You cannot give everyone, everything and think it is all going to work out. Forget what education Greece, Spain, etc, etc, etc. got from Liberal ideas. The latest CBO figures show our spending is unstainable. Perhaps the cost of the adventure in the sand box is too costly? quote: Our economy is phony and being propped up by the government printing 85 billion a month out of thin air. The only reason other countries need our dollars is because it is the "international currency" Russia and China are making deals with other countries that don't require purchases between countries in US dollars. When enough countries agree to this, we are screwed and the dollar will become almost worthless. Buy silver and gold to cover your ass when the shit hits the fan. Is there some econ book that we could look at to validate this mindnumbing stupid opinion?

Phydeaux -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:38:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux But you're saying lets make the current system better by making prices go... up? No I'm not. Once again, I do not support Obamacare. If you've read my posts, you'd note I don't particularly support Obama. (unless you call referring to him as the least effective president in a couple of generations support) I'm saying that the system is badly broken and the Republicans who control the house would rather see the whole country go down in flames than fix it because they're afraid he might get some inkling of credit. Hill, I wasn't referring to you in a specific sense; it was you in the generic sense of people that want obama care. Sorry for the confusion. Regarding the system is badly broken - there have been times in the past that duels erupted on the floor of the house. I think the noise that is happening now is evidence only of the normal disfunction of democracy. That said, I do believe every generation must make the effort to preserve freedom and democracy. The noise of democracy doesn't concern me. I think the greatest threat to our freedoms is the ever constant erosion of bigger government, bigger corporations, bigger unions. I would tax companies bigger than 50K people or so, whether through direct taxation or tariffs. Or bigger than say 1 bil in assets. I would require them to split via anti trust action. I would outlaw govt unions. Unions can only represent their industry. I would cut the pay of most govt works to 24K + 1/3 of what they were making previously. I would allow corporations that agree to caps on executive salary, and that reduced prices to the american public to pay no corporate taxes. Etc.

thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:40:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Probably not. Why are costs going up? We have the most expensive healthcare in the world, with a middling outcome. Where is the money going? It is not going to outcome. Why are costs going up? Huge health care conglomerates are raising prices. Is this something new or is this pretty much old news? quote: Because there are too few doctor's offices competing. Doesn't the ama limits the number of doctors in the u.s.? quote: because federal regulations means the average cost of delivering a new drug in the us exceed 700 million. Which part of that protocol would you like to see removed? quote: because threat of tort action makes doctors practice defensive medicine. Should incompetet doctors be protected from torts? quote: because consumers have no incentive to shop for the best price/services. Since they don't pay for it, they go for the "best" care. Why should anyone seek less than the best care? quote: because hospitals pass the costs of the uninsured onto those that are insured, or pay cash. And none of these things is obamacare resolving. The aca also does not address global warming,the escalating cost of fuel,or hunger in apalachia[8\|]

Phydeaux -> RE: Interesting Take on Obamacare (9/24/2013 7:40:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: papassion What part of "REALITY" don't Liberals understand? You cannot give everyone, everything and think it is all going to work out. Forget what education Greece, Spain, etc, etc, etc. got from Liberal ideas. The latest CBO figures show our spending is unstainable. Perhaps the cost of the adventure in the sand box is too costly? quote: Our economy is phony and being propped up by the government printing 85 billion a month out of thin air. The only reason other countries need our dollars is because it is the "international currency" Russia and China are making deals with other countries that don't require purchases between countries in US dollars. When enough countries agree to this, we are screwed and the dollar will become almost worthless. Buy silver and gold to cover your ass when the shit hits the fan. Is there some econ book that we could look at to validate this mindnumbing stupid opinion? Papassion is right that the role of the dollar in international currency has declined over the last ten years. Google it.

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