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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 3:51:22 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
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Status: offline 		I have the same issue with pageants that I have with child sports - the parents that use them to compensate or reinvent their own childhoods. I spent a lot of time working in ER's and the number of parents that talked about how "we" did today on the field was frightening. Their (the adults) self esteem was bound up in how their kids did on the field - and you don't think that those kids felt incredible pressure to perform to parents expectations.

Parents have taken childhood experiences and turned them into hugely competitive - and lucrative businesses. Its sick!

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 4:19:18 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		You hit the nail on the head ChatteParfaitt, a child's innocence is something to be treasured and never exploited.

I agree kiwi, though I do think some children are naturally competitive and that's great, I think we should quietly encourage that. My eldest son didn't need any encouragement when it came to ice hockey. He lived and breathed for the game, so much so that I had to hugely restrict him during exam time. It didn't go unnoticed though, when I did go along to watch him and stand with the other parents, that some were hugely competitive on their children's behalf. I'm sure it must of taken all the fun out of the game for those poor boys because the pressure to do well was quite alarming.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 4:37:03 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Oh I so agree about child sports. When my kids were in soccer, we saw a lot of that. And my daughter started when she was 5 -- at 5 years old the parents were having unrealistic expectations for their kids.

Some of course do love sports. My daughter was on the Chgo Swim Team, which means she was a top ranked swimmer. She loved swimming from an early age. I remember we were on vacation and they had an Olympic sized pool, and my tiny daughter jumped right into the deep end. The life guard told her she was too small to swim there, unless she could do some laps. She asked him 'How many?' knowing she could do as many as he asked.

(That's my kid for you.)

The huge difference is if it's what the child wants to do, and if the parents back off from seeing the child's performance as a reflection of their own self. Many parents don't seem to get that.




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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 6:30:54 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I detest the sexualization of children. Here in the US, it's big business. Twenty years ago when my daughter was 8, we shopped for a swimsuit for her, and it was hard to find ones in her size that WERE NOT highly sexual. And she was a small 8 year old. It was disgusting.

BTW: My daughter had no interest in those suits, since she'd been allowed to be a child, not some adult's sexualized little doll.


I remember being a kid (which was a very long time ago), not sure what age I was (8? 10? 11? I don't remember).. but since I grew up on a farm I tried to order a swimsuit from the Sears catalog... the darn thing was sold out!!! it was the "sexiest" swimsuit in their catalog too, which is why I wanted that one.. Kids don't grow up in a vacuum.. they do see what goes on around them even without being in child beauty pageants or whatever.. a kid does not need to be sexualized herself to be aware of the fact that being beautiful and being sexy will get you attention and many times what you want in life.. that message is out there all the time, from newspapers, tv, the internet, etc.. Its pretty hard to fight that.. but imo parents can do that by instilling values in their kids, and keeping them well-rounded..

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 7:33:39 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		and the mothers horse whipped, and not in a good way.
Why must you suck the joy out of my life

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 7:44:43 AM   
PyrotheClown


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Status: offline 		Guess those parents are gonna halfta find another activity to fill their newly opened schedules....on another totally unrelated subject,I'll be excepting applications for my underground pee-wee bareknuckle boxing league

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 10:26:41 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

Guess those parents are gonna halfta find another activity to fill their newly opened schedules....on another totally unrelated subject,I'll be excepting applications for my underground pee-wee bareknuckle boxing league

Now I have this mental image of pee wee herman in tighty whities bare knuckling it
with mike(the soprano) tyson

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 12:55:42 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
French children have been banned which means, French children can not partake in beauty pageants anywhere within the European union.


I'm surprised that's even legal. In the U.S., states have the right to govern the state itself, not what happens outside the state. (Assuming whatever law the state passes doesn't violate federal law.) It would be like California passing a law that kids under 16 can't be served junk food in restaurants, and then prosecuting some restaurant in Minnesota for serving junk food to kids from California. That would infringe on Minnesota's right to govern itself.

I believe one of the only exceptions is marriage contracts, which, once issued in one state, must be recognised by the other states.

I would oppose a similar law for the U.S. Parents have the right to make basic choices about child-rearing without government interference. The government shouldn't dictate whether parents can enroll their kids in beauty pageants any more than it should dictate what parents feed their kids.


that's the power of a federal state to rule it's RESIDENTS over the whole national territory and depends on the national costitution law, the power of a nation to rule it's CITIZENS is different, if I'm... lets say... a private consultant working for the italian army and when in holiday in iran I sell information about nato's bases in our territory, I think if found out I would be charged for something I did abroad, in this case treason. I'm not saying child beauty pegeants are alike selling military secrets I was just saying that france is a nation not a federal state in the EU and that citizens of a nation are sometimes obligated to not be involved in certain activities even when abroad.
Second thing: children are not property of the parents, but minors are citizens with rights, due to their condition are dependant to the parents, the nation has an obligation to protect their best interests, and so it can also forbid to bring the child across the boarder with the intention of making the child subject of what is considered disturbing.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/26/2013 1:08:24 PM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 1:18:57 PM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		A very good point eulero83 and you're right, children are not the property of their parents. We are guardians of our children and its our responsibility to help that child to grow into a well rounded individual. Some people don't understand what that responsibility entails and inadvertently create abusive situations. Many children involved in beauty pageants come under the heading 'abuse' and for those children, an outsider, in this case the French government need to step in and say 'Stop..No more'.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 1:37:36 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

It did have an affect on me as I grew up because all of my self-worth as an adult was based on my appearance. My first job was working as a dancer in the sex industry and that's not something I'm proud of and I absolutely blame that on the vanity that had been instilled in me at such a tender age. I grew up believing there was no desire without beauty. I only felt confident when I felt beautiful and so I needed that re-iterating to me all of the time. Provocative dancing ensured the compliments continued to flood in.



Maybe you where just young at the time, I say this because I have a high consideration of you from the posts of yours I could read and made a totally different image of you, that was more a self confident woman you don't want to mess up with. I remember the picture you used as avatar, too, it was elegant and femmine not at all vain, also showed self confidence not ostentation of your appearance.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 1:44:35 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		The italian situation is probably even worse, child beauty pegeant are common around naples area that has a high unemployment rate so parents tend to push children in them so they can work modeling in commercials or acting in tv shows and have an income, that's even more disturbing, in that area is also common to have child singer that become local pop stars for one or two years and sing at parties the whole week end.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 3:21:11 PM   
MasterCaneman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

Guess those parents are gonna halfta find another activity to fill their newly opened schedules....on another totally unrelated subject,I'll be excepting applications for my underground pee-wee bareknuckle boxing league

Now I have this mental image of pee wee herman in tighty whities bare knuckling it
with mike(the soprano) tyson


Dammit, now I do too. Off to the gin mill...

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 3:21:57 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
that's the power of a federal state to rule it's RESIDENTS over the whole national territory and depends on the national costitution law, the power of a nation to rule it's CITIZENS is different, if I'm... lets say... a private consultant working for the italian army and when in holiday in iran I sell information about nato's bases in our territory, I think if found out I would be charged for something I did abroad, in this case treason. I'm not saying child beauty pegeants are alike selling military secrets I was just saying that france is a nation not a federal state in the EU and that citizens of a nation are sometimes obligated to not be involved in certain activities even when abroad.


In that case, I'm glad I don't live in the EU.

quote:

Second thing: children are not property of the parents, but minors are citizens with rights, due to their condition are dependant to the parents, the nation has an obligation to protect their best interests, and so it can also forbid to bring the child across the boarder with the intention of making the child subject of what is considered disturbing.


Fair enough. It's just that I consider what the French government considers disturbing...disturbing.


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/26/2013 3:22:03 PM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 3:54:44 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

In that case, I'm glad I don't live in the EU.



I'd like to live in switzerland or norway too, anyway as EU is not a country but every european country has it's own form of state, costitution, law, money, language, and culture can you list exaclty the specific reasons for each one?
the list is here

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 4:10:02 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I'd like to live in switzerland or norway too, anyway as EU is not a country but every european country has it's own form of state, costitution, law, money, language, and culture can you list exaclty the specific reasons for each one?
the list is here


Huh?

I'm glad I don't live in the EU because this thread makes it look socialist and bureaucratic. Not sure what your link is supposed to prove.


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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 4:28:32 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I'd like to live in switzerland or norway too, anyway as EU is not a country but every european country has it's own form of state, costitution, law, money, language, and culture can you list exaclty the specific reasons for each one?
the list is here


Huh?

I'm glad I don't live in the EU because this thread makes it look socialist and bureaucratic. Not sure what your link is supposed to prove.



The link was not to prove anything, it is just the list of countries that are part of the EU that is not a country, your answer shows you have no idea of what EU is and the difference between a nation and a federal state, it's like I say I don't want to live in the commonwealth because there is a high crime rate in south africa, but I don't understand why this should afflict living in Canada.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 4:35:51 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I'd like to live in switzerland or norway too, anyway as EU is not a country but every european country has it's own form of state, costitution, law, money, language, and culture can you list exaclty the specific reasons for each one?
the list is here


Huh?

I'm glad I don't live in the EU because this thread makes it look socialist and bureaucratic. Not sure what your link is supposed to prove.



What is wrong with socialistic and bureaucratic?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/26/2013 4:37:19 PM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 5:06:32 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
What is wrong with socialistic and bureaucratic?


Like I said, I'm glad I live here.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 5:14:26 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
What is wrong with socialistic and bureaucratic?


Like I said, I'm glad I live here.


Sorry but won't the USA have something to say if you fly to Yemen with your 10 years old daughter and marry her to a 40 years old man leaving her there? You did nothing illegal in Yemen.
Does it makes the USA bureaucratic and socialist?

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/26/2013 5:16:17 PM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 5:43:12 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
The link was not to prove anything, it is just the list of countries that are part of the EU that is not a country, your answer shows you have no idea of what EU is and the difference between a nation and a federal state, it's like I say I don't want to live in the commonwealth because there is a high crime rate in south africa, but I don't understand why this should afflict living in Canada.


I never claimed the EU was a country, and certainly never claimed that it's constituents do not have their own form of state, constitution, law, money, language, and culture, but I thank you for providing positive proof that that is so, if you felt you needed to clarify that.

I'm confident that I have never responded to any query about U.S. law from a non-American poster with anywhere near that level of smug condescension.


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