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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 5:57:04 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

One can only hope that others will follow suit.


Agreed.

I think they are hideous and to me they seem more about the mums egos than the kids enjoyment.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 6:11:37 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
What is wrong with socialistic and bureaucratic?


Like I said, I'm glad I live here.

I find the US extremely bureaucratic.. especially when you run into someone that goes exactly "by the book".. About a week ago I asked the female bus driver to stop at a certain stop cuz I thought the stop buzzer wasn't working (the read-a-board wasn't letting passengers know if a stop was requested- it definitely was broken).. she refused to stop where I asked her to and wouldn't let me off until I actually pushed the stop buzzer thingie.. if that's not bureaucratic then what is? and I have run into that type of crap far too often.. But hey, at least the US isn't socialistic, right?

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 8:09:58 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
Sorry but won't the USA have something to say if you fly to Yemen with your 10 years old daughter and marry her to a 40 years old man leaving her there? You did nothing illegal in Yemen.
Does it makes the USA bureaucratic and socialist?


No. Marrying a ten year old to some stranger in a foreign country is not equivalent to entering her in a beauty pageant, and Yemen is not part of the United States.

When MariaB said it was illegal, I originally took that to mean, illegal for both the French parents and the foreign pageant organizers. I though she was saying the law was going to require citizens of all countries within the EU to follow a purely French law. Maybe I misunderstood, and she meant that only French citizens would be bound by the law (regardless of the country in which they happened to be). That certainly makes more sense, although I still don't think it's government's place to make those kinds of decisions for parents. My statement, "I'm glad I don't live in the EU" referenced the argument that the citizens of any country with the EU would be bound by the laws of every country therein. If I misunderstood MariaB then I should have said,"I'm glad I don't live in France".

And yes, I'm afraid I think the law is bureaucratic and socialist. That view will most likely stand until someone provides a comparable example to the OP involving two U.S. States, or at least an example that can I agree with in the EU where a citizen of country A travelled to country B (both within the EU) and while within the borders of country B did something that violated law in country A (but was legal in country B) and was prosecuted for it.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/26/2013 8:10:05 PM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/26/2013 10:24:06 PM   
metamorfosis


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Status: offline 		Wow, I just looked at those photos. I still think the pageants shouldn't be banned, but the government would be well within its rights to make sure they're age appropriate.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 12:54:11 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
Sorry but won't the USA have something to say if you fly to Yemen with your 10 years old daughter and marry her to a 40 years old man leaving her there? You did nothing illegal in Yemen.
Does it makes the USA bureaucratic and socialist?


No. Marrying a ten year old to some stranger in a foreign country is not equivalent to entering her in a beauty pageant, and Yemen is not part of the United States.

When MariaB said it was illegal, I originally took that to mean, illegal for both the French parents and the foreign pageant organizers. I though she was saying the law was going to require citizens of all countries within the EU to follow a purely French law. Maybe I misunderstood, and she meant that only French citizens would be bound by the law (regardless of the country in which they happened to be). That certainly makes more sense, although I still don't think it's government's place to make those kinds of decisions for parents. My statement, "I'm glad I don't live in the EU" referenced the argument that the citizens of any country with the EU would be bound by the laws of every country therein. If I misunderstood MariaB then I should have said,"I'm glad I don't live in France".

And yes, I'm afraid I think the law is bureaucratic and socialist. That view will most likely stand until someone provides a comparable example to the OP involving two U.S. States, or at least an example that can I agree with in the EU where a citizen of country A travelled to country B (both within the EU) and while within the borders of country B did something that violated law in country A (but was legal in country B) and was prosecuted for it.


That what I was saying it's only french citizens that are bound to that law, I gave you an example with marriage and there is not all this difference, the people of France decided through their elected rapresentants that beauty pegeant have such a sexual content level that requires informed consent by the participant and set the age of consent at 16, so like in the USA I can't have a lap dance from a 14 years old girl that's in love with me even if the parents are cool with that, in france I can't see her in a beauty pegeant, you could say they are not as confident with children sexuality as you are but not that it's not their right to set a limit.
I think there are examples when it comes to age of consent issues but I'm not a lawyer in the usa (I'm not even in my country) so of course I can't find one, anyhow I'm quite positive that the law in france don't punishes the act of participating in a pegeant abroad but the act of trasporting the child abroad with the intent of partecipate in a pegeant... I found a usa federal law that for example ban to trasport a person (no matther what age) in any state with intention of engaging in prostitution, and there is not written any state but nevada so... for me here is one.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 1:41:47 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
That what I was saying it's only french citizens that are bound to that law,


Okay, got it. Thanks. That does make more sense.

quote:

I gave you an example with marriage and there is not all this difference...


This is why I'm confused. MariaB said "French children have been banned, which means French children cannot partake in beauty pageants anywhere within the European Union." She did not say, French children have been banned, which means French children cannot participate in beauty pageants anywhere in the world. My question is this: if the pageants are so bad, why only ban participation within the EU? Is she wrong that it's banned only there? Are the rest of the world's pageants less sexualized?

Your examples (treason and the marriage of an extremely minor child) refer to activities that citizens would be banned from doing in any country, not only certain countries. It would not, for example, be acceptable to marry off your ten year old child while visiting Uganda but not Yemen. And I'm almost certain there is no law in the U.S. that makes it illegal for citizens of one state to do something in another state if it is legal there. I understand you're saying that our federal government isn't the same as the EU. Still, it boggles my mind that such things would not be allowed.

quote:

the people of France decided through their elected rapresentants that beauty pegeant have such a sexual content level that requires informed consent by the participant and set the age of consent at 16, so like in the USA I can't have a lap dance from a 14 years old girl that's in love with me even if the parents are cool with that, in france I can't see her in a beauty pegeant, you could say they are not as confident with children sexuality as you are but not that it's not their right to set a limit.

I think there are examples when it comes to age of consent issues but I'm not a lawyer in the usa (I'm not even in my country) so of course I can't find one, anyhow I'm quite positive that the law in france don't punishes the act of participating in a pegeant abroad but the act of trasporting the child abroad with the intent of partecipate in a pegeant... I found a usa federal law that for example ban to trasport a person (no matther what age) in any state with intention of engaging in prostitution, and there is not written any state but nevada so... for me here is one.


I guess that's fair enough, if the pageants are that sexualized. I still question why the law wouldn't apply to all child beauty pageants and not just those in the EU.


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/27/2013 1:54:19 AM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 3:23:20 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		To be honest I haven't looked into intricacies about this new law and I'm not about to. My interest goes as far as what I've read in the national papers but if you want to go down the political line, then I'm happy for others to discuss that with you because I really don't have the time to start scrutinizing legislation.



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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 3:39:29 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		I wrote a little on the hlen5 about a condition called 'Achievement by Proxy Distortion' (ABPD) Its not an uncommon condition and very harmful to the children.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/10/29/child-beauty-pageants-may-be-more-about-parents/46818.html

Should the government have a right to step in if they feel by stepping in they can protect children from future abuse? I certainly hope so.

I was sat by my local lake a few days ago with an English friend who's been staying here. There were lots of children up to about 9 years old running around naked. My friend was a little concerned and said, don't the parents worry about perverts taking pictures?
My answer was, surely we must allow our children to be children and if that means running around a public lake naked with no inhibitions then you have to stop being impregnated by the media that all single men are perverts and that a naked child is in grave danger.

France is very relaxed about children being children, its just not relaxed about the proxy parents using and abusing a child.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 3:46:04 AM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		Ok I'm not a lawyer so I can be wrong if someone knows more about this can be free to correct me.
I'm sure that france's governament don't go after someone for activities in another country that are legal there, and my guess is that the law about partecipating in pegeants in other countries punishes trasportation of a minor outside the border in order to sexually expose him/her in front of an audience, like I suppose it is for child labour and other things, and I think everywhere when it comes to minors trasported outside the county is a different matter than an adult traveling to engage activities forbidden in his home country.
The problem with EU is that you don't need any visa to move among member states, so probably they can solve the problem of a beauty pegeant in australia refusing to support the visa request, if that's the reason, and if done with a turist's visa they can accuse of violations when asking for the visa.
The difference with uganda is that there child marriage is forbidden, so they would be incarcerated there while in yemen is legal and accepted.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/27/2013 3:49:17 AM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 4:55:21 AM   
chatterbox24


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Status: offline 		Children are like little sponges. I am a girly girl when it come to make up, I just love it. I am very light complected with light hair so I have always used make up as a means to brighten myself up. My daughter picked up on that, and will say I need to brighten myself up. Every time she says it I make sure I tell her your beautiful just as you are, you have dark features and don't need all that, a nature beauty. I make sure she feels good enough. When I had her in a couple pageants, she was just a baby, it was all lacey dresses and fancy headbands and shoes. But the older kids in them, it seems like they were being taught they weren't pretty enough, with false hair, lashes, tans, and even teeth!!! Really setting them up for them feeling not good enough, not pretty enough.
Recently, I just took my son out of football, the coaches wanted him to play in the worst way cause he is enormous but he started having trouble in school with emotional outbursts, and he had been telling me he liked football. The truth came out he hated football, he just didn't want to disappoint anyone. This was a kid who had always been happy go lucky and a joy.

I don't think pageants should be banned, that takes away rights but it sure would be good if the parents got a clue, because its so true, parents do a lot of things for themselves, and sometimes will ignore what how their kid feels or what kind of damage they are doing.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 9/27/2013 5:00:29 AM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 5:19:27 AM   
slavekate80


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Status: offline 		Wouldn't regulating the pageants, such as saying 'no swimwear' and placing a limit on how many one can enter in a given year, make more sense than a full-on ban?

If the problem is sexualizing young girls and an over-emphasis on physical beauty, pageants are only a teensy-tiny part of that. Advertising, the clothes made for older girls, the way they dress and behave in school, television portrayals - those have a much bigger impact than beauty pageants.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 5:21:42 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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I don't always agree with Maria but on this topic, I whole-heartedly agree with everything she's said.

When I lived in the US for 8 months, I was appalled by the child beauty pageants.
Agreed, some kids loved it; but many hated it.
It is all about the ego of the parents and getting their kids to achieve what they couldn't.
It's a kiddies version of Miss World and all the controversy that goes with it.
And what's even worse, they make the kids up to look as sexual and adult as they can.
And to me, that's just sick. It's blatant child abuse and sexual exploitation of children.

There is a distinct difference betweek children modelling for catalogue clothes or doing TV adverts.
Just look at the difference in say, the swimsuit pics, between a pageant child and a catalogue.
In the catalogue, it's a fairly plain-looking child (albeit a pretty one), with a smile, showing off a swimsuit.
In a pageant (at least the ones I went to in Jax, FL and Tampa), the kids are made and dressed up to look like sexy adults - the swimsuit is just another costume for them to wear amidst all the false nails, eyelashes, hair extensions, and trowelled-on make-up.
Even when you raise the age to 10, 11, 12 year olds. The emphasis is all wrong in a US pageant.

They had a local pageant for a local playgroup here recently and it was totally different to what I witnessed in the US.
It was normal kids doing normal things in normal clothes and all looking very happy being part of it.
I'm not against child pageants as such; just the way they go overboard in the US to make them look sexual.

For once, I wish Brussels would step in and outlaw beauty pageants for those under 16 for the whole of the EU.

ETA:
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekate80
Wouldn't regulating the pageants, such as saying 'no swimwear' and placing a limit on how many one can enter in a given year, make more sense than a full-on ban?

If the problem is sexualizing young girls and an over-emphasis on physical beauty, pageants are only a teensy-tiny part of that. Advertising, the clothes made for older girls, the way they dress and behave in school, television portrayals - those have a much bigger impact than beauty pageants.

The whole emphasis on the way the kids look, behave, pose, and even speak in every part of a pageant is sexualising the child to the max.
That isn't the case in any other aspect of children and commerce.
That's why child pageants are just plain bad.

Just my 

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 9/27/2013 5:28:30 AM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 5:36:56 AM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekate80

Wouldn't regulating the pageants, such as saying 'no swimwear' and placing a limit on how many one can enter in a given year, make more sense than a full-on ban?

If the problem is sexualizing young girls and an over-emphasis on physical beauty, pageants are only a teensy-tiny part of that. Advertising, the clothes made for older girls, the way they dress and behave in school, television portrayals - those have a much bigger impact than beauty pageants.


I think this is a good idea. Natural pageants are a bit different then the ones called "GLITZ". None of the less, I still have a problem with kids being judged by their outward beauty and if they don't win something its like "well Im not pretty"
Kids are not prepared for the stresses and pressures of those type things, honestly many adults cant handle it. Look at child stars, the majority of them grow up to be confused adults turning to drugs and alcohol.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 5:43:03 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		metamorfosis, do you think that bigger restrictions should be put on child beauty pageants? Lets say, rules like, no hair extensions, no false eyelashes or even no makeup? No clothes that could be deemed as provocative or adult? Why for example should a child be paraded round in a swim suit in a 'beauty pageant'? Trying to educate extreme parents that this is wrong whilst still allowing this sort of thing to happen isn't going to stop anyone. The billion dollar industry that make all these pageant products and put these pageants on are the ones who need to be curbed. These are the people who are exploiting children for the dollar and these are the people who will fight tooth and nail to keep all options open regarding beauty pageants.

Beauty Pageants are the cause of not only emotional abuse to many children but physical abuse too.
This is a video of a five year old child having her eyebrows waxed. Watch this and tell me if its consensual. icymic.com/articles/64201/dear-america-stop-watching-toddlers-tiaras.
Here is another of a mother injecting botox into her 8 year old daughters face to get rid of wrinkles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auzvSkIk7xg apparently its common practice within the more extreme circles.


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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 6:50:35 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekate80

Wouldn't regulating the pageants, such as saying 'no swimwear' and placing a limit on how many one can enter in a given year, make more sense than a full-on ban?

If the problem is sexualizing young girls and an over-emphasis on physical beauty, pageants are only a teensy-tiny part of that. Advertising, the clothes made for older girls, the way they dress and behave in school, television portrayals - those have a much bigger impact than beauty pageants.


For how I see it they are a grey area in many aspects, sexualizing child before the natural personal devellopment is probably the biggest one, some months ago I've seen a service about child beauty pegeant from a tv show, the journalist was using a lot of sarcasm to expose what the parents were really after, and what you could understand was that most of the parents paraded the children, and pushed them to as for an interview during that tv show, with the hope that they could get some paid job for modeling or acting, I don't say it is the french or american situation, but it's also another issue to consider. To me it's also disturbing just the fact they are puched to act like adults instead than just behave like their age, by the way also the fact the pegeant went after midnight was another problem. As I said it's a lot of gray France decided the gray was of a too dark shade.
Some compared it to child sports but I see a major difference that while in sport can improve socialization, health and phisical skills, I don't see any educational goal in beauty pegeants, and just to be clear I'm against pushing a child in a sport just because the parent likes it, I think they should try more and choose what they like the most.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 7:55:27 AM   
DaBotz


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Status: offline 		I would agree, if I did not know a couple of parents or two who have nacisistic personalities and couldn't care less about their children long term stability, as long as they can use them to further their own goals.

I tend to gather that there are not so few of these, among the parents of beauty pageants' children.

Or, if you prefer, the state should stay away from the way parents rear their children, as long as said parents are not openly abusive...it is fine by me.

What about the covertly abusive? The one who keeps pushing and do not even realize the arm they are doing?

Beauty pageants seems an area that offers plenty of occasion for subtle, covert abuse of children by narcisistic parents, and offers little to no value for the rest of the society at large.

Let's get rid of them.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 9:06:40 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
To be honest I haven't looked into intricacies about this new law and I'm not about to. My interest goes as far as what I've read in the national papers but if you want to go down the political line, then I'm happy for others to discuss that with you because I really don't have the time to start scrutinizing legislation.


I was refuting a statement that you made earlier on this thread, namely that French children cannot partake in beauty pageants anywhere in the EU. (BTW- that was contradicted by the link you gave yourself, which said that they would probably be moving the pageant across the border to Belgium, so that French children could participate there.) Another poster suggested that they would simply move the pageants to another country, and you said no, that French children would be banned from participating within the EU.

I'm not asking you to scrutinize legislation, I'm asking you to back up a statement that you already made. If you can't do it because you don't know it for a fact, then at very least you should stop representing it as fact.


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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 9:09:44 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
metamorfosis, do you think that bigger restrictions should be put on child beauty pageants?


I already said that I do. (Post #44). Specifically, I said they should be made age appropriate.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/27/2013 9:10:24 AM >

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 9:55:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
metamorfosis, do you think that bigger restrictions should be put on child beauty pageants?


I already said that I do. (Post #44). Specifically, I said they should be made age appropriate.

Surely, pushing a child into an adult-style sexually-fantasised world is just not age appropriate??
I see no benefits whatsoever to the child - it's all glory for the parents and organisers.
And for the most part, TV and magazine/catalogue pundits don't choose their protoges from pageants.

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RE: France to ban Child Beauty Pageants - 9/27/2013 11:10:59 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
To be honest I haven't looked into intricacies about this new law and I'm not about to. My interest goes as far as what I've read in the national papers but if you want to go down the political line, then I'm happy for others to discuss that with you because I really don't have the time to start scrutinizing legislation.


I was refuting a statement that you made earlier on this thread, namely that French children cannot partake in beauty pageants anywhere in the EU. (BTW- that was contradicted by the link you gave yourself, which said that they would probably be moving the pageant across the border to Belgium, so that French children could participate there.) Another poster suggested that they would simply move the pageants to another country, and you said no, that French children would be banned from participating within the EU.

I'm not asking you to scrutinize legislation, I'm asking you to back up a statement that you already made. If you can't do it because you don't know it for a fact, then at very least you should stop representing it as fact.



http://www.salon.com/2013/09/18/france_votes_to_ban_child_beauty_pageants/

anyone who ignores the law and enters a child into a pageant could face two years in prison and a fine of 30,000 euros, which is more than 40K in U.S. dollars.

The important part is the bit I bolded because 'anyone' is an individual.

I made a statement based on the original article and how I interpreted it. This though, is not what this post is about and we are now at risk of the post being derailed because you have become so intent on making issue with this. So lets just say, for your benefit that French children could be taken over the border to attend beauty pageants in Belgian. Its not something that could be ongoing because everyone who is geared to sell and make beauty products specifically for children in France will simply close their doors. Parents will find it tougher and tougher and I believe and hope that it would just die a natural death. Child beauty pageants is a tiny industry in France compared to America.




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