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Brazil said it! - 9/25/2013 1:42:04 PM   
egern


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Brazil said it!


Brazilian president: US surveillance a 'breach of international law'

Brazil's president, Dilma Rousseff, has launched a blistering attack on US espionage at the UN general assembly, accusing the NSA of violating international law by its indiscriminate collection of personal information of Brazilian citizens and economic espionage targeted on the country's strategic industries.


Rousseff had already put off a planned visit to Washington in protest at US spying, after NSA documents leaked by Snowden revealed that the US electronic eavesdropping agency had monitored the Brazilian president's phone calls, as well as Brazilian embassies and spied on the state oil corporation, Petrobras.


"Personal data of citizens was intercepted indiscriminately. Corporate information – often of high economic and even strategic value – was at the centre of espionage activity.


"Tampering in such a manner in the affairs of other countries is a breach of international law and is an affront of the principles that must guide the relations among them, especially among friendly nations. A sovereign nation can never establish itself to the detriment of another sovereign nation. The right to safety of citizens of one country can never be guaranteed by violating fundamental human rights of citizens of another country."

"Friendly governments and societies that seek to build a true strategic partnership, as in our case, cannot allow recurring illegal actions to take place as if they were normal. They are unacceptable," she said



"In the absence of the right to privacy, there can be no true freedom of expression and opinion, and therefore no effective democracy. In the absence of the respect for sovereignty, there is no basis for the relationship among nations."


It is time someone said it.

This problem raises some questions:

Is it ok for a country to spy on other countries - friend or foe - as it pleases?

Is it a threat to democracy?

Is it time for the countries to make their own IT net?

Will the WWW fracture if that happens?

Should the UN over guidelines for spying, and be equipped to see that they are followed?

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/25/2013 3:03:18 PM   
MasterCaneman


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Status: offline 		Looks like we're a-gonna be democratizing again in the hemispere. I better go brush up on my Spanish.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/25/2013 3:07:05 PM   
DaddySatyr


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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/25/2013 3:07:19 PM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


Brazil said it!


Brazilian president: US surveillance a 'breach of international law'

Brazil's president, Dilma Rousseff, has launched a blistering attack on US espionage at the UN general assembly, accusing the NSA of violating international law by its indiscriminate collection of personal information of Brazilian citizens and economic espionage targeted on the country's strategic industries.


Rousseff had already put off a planned visit to Washington in protest at US spying, after NSA documents leaked by Snowden revealed that the US electronic eavesdropping agency had monitored the Brazilian president's phone calls, as well as Brazilian embassies and spied on the state oil corporation, Petrobras.


"Personal data of citizens was intercepted indiscriminately. Corporate information – often of high economic and even strategic value – was at the centre of espionage activity.


"Tampering in such a manner in the affairs of other countries is a breach of international law and is an affront of the principles that must guide the relations among them, especially among friendly nations. A sovereign nation can never establish itself to the detriment of another sovereign nation. The right to safety of citizens of one country can never be guaranteed by violating fundamental human rights of citizens of another country."

"Friendly governments and societies that seek to build a true strategic partnership, as in our case, cannot allow recurring illegal actions to take place as if they were normal. They are unacceptable," she said



"In the absence of the right to privacy, there can be no true freedom of expression and opinion, and therefore no effective democracy. In the absence of the respect for sovereignty, there is no basis for the relationship among nations."


It is time someone said it.

This problem raises some questions:

Is it ok for a country to spy on other countries - friend or foe - as it pleases?

Is it a threat to democracy?

Is it time for the countries to make their own IT net?

Will the WWW fracture if that happens?

Should the UN over guidelines for spying, and be equipped to see that they are followed?




Everyone should be saying it... fully agree. Not sure about the UN overseeing it, I've never been a fan. Read here.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/25/2013 3:45:36 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound
Everyone should be saying it... fully agree. Not sure about the UN overseeing it, I've never been a fan. Read here.

I agree. Everyone should be saying it. But there are at least two camps i know of who are not.

A) It's not really happening.
Somehow, despite all the information readily available there seems to be large swaths of Americans who do not believe the US Govt does such things. Take a look at the iPhone with it's biometric authentication. If you asked a normal American if they'd consent to being fingerprinted "just because" and having a GPS tracker embedded in their skin they'd look at you like you were nuts. Yet they will buy this product.

B) It's OK, I'm not doing anything wrong.
There's really no argument against this. These are folks who know nothing about history and for whatever reasons trust the US government.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/25/2013 3:45:41 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Looks like we're a-gonna be democratizing again in the hemispere. I better go brush up on my Spanish.

Portugese is the language in brazil.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 1:43:20 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Gosh the NSA is spying on people. WOW, what a surprise. Here's another surprise. That's their job! The Brazilian President doesn't like that the USA has better code breakers than he's got code creators. That is not the fault of the USA but Brazil. What 'international law' do the NSA break exactly? I would suspect China has done the same in Brazil as well. Why isn't the Brazilian President lashing out at China?

All this is, is other countries intelligence groups have been out performed by the NSA for years and now can smack them on the face. Of course all these same countries are happy (if not grateful) when the NSA detects an actual terrorist plot in the making in their backyard. They tell the White House/Pentagon who in turn tells that government. And that government takes down the terrorists and claims credit for the whole thing. How often has the NSA done things that helped removed the 'bad guys' from doing 'bad things' to 'good people', and taking the credit for it? Never. That's not their way. It really doesn't matter who is in the White House at the time, the NSA's job is to keep the nation safe however it can.


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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 2:05:08 AM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
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Status: offline 		Anyone actually removing the NSA electronic communications snooping from their country will quickly become a new terrorist training and staging area. They tend to be active where they are once they build enough strength to sustain a campaign, leading to the unintended consequence of such countries having to imitate the NSA to survive being transformed by the ambitions of the various terrorists. Only they won't have the experience, resources or capabilities of the NSA. So they perish or ask the NSA and it's government masters for help? Being 'not-USA' doesn't mean they aren't just as condemned as modern Capitalist Western cultures the Wahhabi Jihadists and other anti-Western terrorists are seeking to annihilate.
Brazil's economy would be as damaged by a major terror success in the US as our economy or that of any of our other major trading partners. It's an interconnected world for better and worse.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 9/26/2013 2:15:33 AM >

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 3:50:44 AM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Absolutely, countries spy on other countries but what is so apaulling is that we, the free people of these states, are their target. We are a police state and our liberties are being taken over one at a time. Phone call data being saved and kept... now email, because golly, the 4th amendment actually covered letters, pulp related. Just like the 2nd amendment was only meant for muskets?? The more we are desensitized to it, the more we let these things slide, the more they will take and overstep. Think about it for a moment... A warrant that can cover millions of peoples cell phone records?? Scary.

Its a cluster. Citizens of other countries are up in arms thinking or knowing that their information is being handed over as well. So, might as well try to cut them off at the pass before they're protesting. Lol. Meanwhile here at home, everyone's tuning into Dancing with the Stars.

< Message edited by DsBound -- 9/26/2013 4:00:13 AM >

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 8:59:30 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Gosh the NSA is spying on people. WOW, what a surprise. Here's another surprise. That's their job!

Cite please
The Brazilian President doesn't like that the USA has better code breakers than he's got code creators.

According to the op:
"Tampering in such a manner in the affairs of other countries is a breach of international law"
Is it the job of the nsa to breach international law?

That is not the fault of the USA but Brazil. What 'international law' do the NSA break exactly?

I do not know that claim was made by the president of brazil.

I would suspect China has done the same in Brazil as well. Why isn't the Brazilian President lashing out at China?

Perhaps because she has proof of the nsa and only your suspicions about china.

All this is, is other countries intelligence groups have been out performed by the NSA for years and now can smack them on the face. Of course all these same countries are happy (if not grateful) when the NSA detects an actual terrorist plot in the making in their backyard. They tell the White House/Pentagon who in turn tells that government. And that government takes down the terrorists and claims credit for the whole thing.


Kinda like the u.s. proping up regimes like pinochet,batista,samoza et al.?
Were those the good guys that the bad guys were gonna do bad things to?

How often has the NSA done things that helped removed the 'bad guys' from doing 'bad things' to 'good people', and taking the credit for it? Never.

Am I the only one who saw "charlie wilson's war"?

That's not their way. It really doesn't matter who is in the White House at the time, the NSA's job is to keep the nation safe however it can.






< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/26/2013 9:01:42 AM >

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 10:20:31 AM   
vincentML


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Can only laugh at this hysterical indignation. As several have pointed out, spying is what nations and city-states have done, do, and will do into forever. Bah!

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 11:44:33 AM   
Esinn


Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Gosh the NSA is spying on people. WOW, what a surprise. Here's another surprise. That's their job! The Brazilian President doesn't like that the USA has better code breakers than he's got code creators. That is not the fault of the USA but Brazil. What 'international law' do the NSA break exactly? I would suspect China has done the same in Brazil as well. Why isn't the Brazilian President lashing out at China?

All this is, is other countries intelligence groups have been out performed by the NSA for years and now can smack them on the face. Of course all these same countries are happy (if not grateful) when the NSA detects an actual terrorist plot in the making in their backyard. They tell the White House/Pentagon who in turn tells that government. And that government takes down the terrorists and claims credit for the whole thing. How often has the NSA done things that helped removed the 'bad guys' from doing 'bad things' to 'good people', and taking the credit for it? Never. That's not their way. It really doesn't matter who is in the White House at the time, the NSA's job is to keep the nation safe however it can.




I might get banned from the site and forums. Hopefully though not before you read this. But, you are a stupid fucking idiot who represents an imminent danger to people living in the USA.

This has been discussed in generalized detail for about 30-60 yrs, the dangers of such spying. It has been discussed in specific detail every day since June. Before opening your loud fucking mouth - do some reading.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 12:10:00 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Status: offline 		FR,

Yeah, Esinn is going to get banned... lol!

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 12:14:01 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound
Everyone should be saying it... fully agree. Not sure about the UN overseeing it, I've never been a fan. Read here.

I agree. Everyone should be saying it. But there are at least two camps i know of who are not.

A) It's not really happening.
Somehow, despite all the information readily available there seems to be large swaths of Americans who do not believe the US Govt does such things. Take a look at the iPhone with it's biometric authentication. If you asked a normal American if they'd consent to being fingerprinted "just because" and having a GPS tracker embedded in their skin they'd look at you like you were nuts. Yet they will buy this product.


These are mostly Obama worshippers. As soon as a republican is elected they will immediately return with criticism in abundance.

quote:





B) It's OK, I'm not doing anything wrong.
There's really no argument against this. These are folks who know nothing about history and for whatever reasons trust the US government.


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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 12:17:00 PM   
Phydeaux


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Status: offline 		I've got no problem with the US spying on other countries. US citizens - is another matter as I've been posting about for 3 months now.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 12:34:50 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Well since the laws were passed by Reagan, Nixon and W, it would seem rather puerile to think that we have been availing ourselves of that law just recently.

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 1:05:14 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I've got no problem with the US spying on other countries. US citizens - is another matter as I've been posting about for 3 months now.



The corolarry being that you do not mind if other countries spy on us and will not snivle when you find out that they stole all of our "secrets"

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 1:06:33 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I've got no problem with the US spying on other countries. US citizens - is another matter as I've been posting about for 3 months now.



What should be done with spies when captured?

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 1:08:02 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

FR

Can only laugh at this hysterical indignation. As several have pointed out, spying is what nations and city-states have done, do, and will do into forever. Bah!


What do you think should be done with spies when captured?

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RE: Brazil said it! - 9/26/2013 1:09:47 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I've got no problem with the US spying on other countries. US citizens - is another matter as I've been posting about for 3 months now.



The corolarry being that you do not mind if other countries spy on us and will not snivle when you find out that they stole all of our "secrets"



No, that is not the corollary. I expect other countries to spy. I expect our government to prevent it to the extent possible. I do object when China steals more than a trillion dollars of intellectual property and *nothing* is done.

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