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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 10/4/2013 8:36:22 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Uv
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You forgot smarter.

Lets continue this on the parallel unmoderated thread.


Why should we, you happily talked of subjects and citizens on here. You eroneously claimed that citizen had more civil duty than a subject. You still wont explain how that applies. You eroneously claimed you were a citizen while I was not, Yet you have the temerity to insist I am the arrogant one........Its just fucking laughable.

No need to go to another thread, since although unmoderated, insults are not allowed.



Good grief, its just a wise crack. We say it to each other referring to those of us here in America. "If you own a gun you're a citizen, if you don't you're a subject".

You know he does this all the time, as bad as Nosathro, finds a trivial point and tries to get a fight going till the thread shuts down.
He even suggested I tell the mods, but of course denies any desire to shut this down.
And as you chickened out on my invitation to move to the unmoderated thread so I can fight back on his terms.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 241
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 10/4/2013 8:37:24 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Silly billy, there is always an opinion. That`s what makes debating what it is.

Mine and the wrong one.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 10/4/2013 8:51:59 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		No need to go to another thread, since although unmoderated, insults are not allowed.


You clearly did not, or could not read the ground rules at the beginning of the post.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 10/4/2013 9:02:02 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Except he wasnt talking to an American.

This means that anything you say to an American which does not fit with our viewpoint is drivel.
Good for the goose good for the gander.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 244
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 10/5/2013 3:29:30 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Five consecutive, all about me, and you suggest I am trying to shut the thread down....... sad sad sad.

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/4/2014 6:53:21 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR
A thread I started last fall.
Today I was told (by another poster) that I can't explain that someone was defending themselves unless self defense was in the title.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 246
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 8:11:02 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Subject vs Citizen, a thought:
The monarch owns all withing the realm by virtue of divine right and his "subjects" own property and conduct business his leave.
The "citizen" is a part and responsible for the welfare of the state and delegates his responsibility for the day to day management of the realm to his elected representatives.

On gun control:
A lot of the anti gun sentiment seems to be attempting to force regional mores and customs on all by the threat of force and violence. But, what is right and proper for Manhattan may be unworkable and inappropriate for Wyoming.
We are not a homogenous nation. Why are many so surprised when resistance is met from attempts force tribal customs on everyone?
Often you see the mindset that one should not use violence to defend themselves as that is the job for the police. The bottom line is that the origin of professional police forces in the U.S. was the hiring of guards to defend property (Norfolk, VA - 1797). And recent (2005) legal precedents have enforced the concept that police are not obligated to defend individuals from home invasion or assault.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

It boils down to the fact that without the ability to defend yourself and your property you can find yourself at the mercy of the biggest scariest thug around. No one is obligated to help you but may do so by custom, if they are available. (Have you ever lived where a max speed police response was 45 minutes or more?) Attempting to make weapons restrictions that would be reasonable in a paper thin walled tenement universal with rural areas with miles between structures is sheer arrogant elitist hubris. One size never fits all.
My home town recently (as in the last year) had a huge furor and protests over "legalizing gun totin"". Laughably, what the legislation actually was about was giving police forces a succinct definition of what constituted "concealed carry". The previous laws were so vague in definition that a shotgun carried in a locked case in the trunk of a car could have been interpreted as a "concealed carry". The guideline given to law enforcement at one time (1970s) was that if 1/4 of the longest length of a weapon was covered it was considered "concealed". Yep, boys, that buck knife in the sheath on your belt that you use while working construction was a "concealed weapon". The off duty security guard who stopped for gas on the way home with his work weapon still on his hip found out about that silly definition when he was arrested for carrying concealed without a permit (1/4 of longest length => any holster made a gun concealed). It is absolutely hilarious how the more liberal press made so much money twisting the words around to make a legal definition of concealed carry look like legislation to legalize vigilantes. BTW, "open carry" is legal here but limited by "public endangerment" which has a good bit of discretionary determination by local officers. A pistol on the hip while out gathering deadwood for the fireplace won't be blinked at (you load with rat shot for the snakes that like to hide under brush piles) but packing heat to the grocery can get you a trip to the Sheriff's office.
It may be obvious that I have objections to imposition of rules and regulations that don't make sense for local conditions being imposed from afar. And most gun control movements try to do this on a nationwide level when it is truly a local and regional issue. If you want to ban handguns in your crowded urban creche, go for it. If you want to tell the farmer that he isn't allowed to defend his property when there is no one else able to do so I'll tell you where to pack it.
As a parting word I'll leave you with an advertising slogan from just after the Civil War, "Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal."

< Message edited by MercTech -- 3/5/2014 8:14:38 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 8:54:09 AM   
FelineRanger


Posts: 658
Joined: 9/4/2012
Status: offline 		Here's a thought that should make you sick. In NJ, self defense simply doesn't exist. If you successfully fend off an attacker, you are just as subject to arrest, prosecution, and incarceration as if you initiated the attack.

_____________________________

Bill

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 9:19:44 AM   
ExquisiteStings


Posts: 391
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline 		Well then, I will now thank the higher power that I don't live in NJ. 'Cause if someone were to make the mistake of attacking Me, that person most likely would end up a whole lot worse for the wear, if not out 'n' out Dee Ceased!

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Profile   Post #: 249
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 9:21:13 AM   
ExquisiteStings


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Status: offline 		Good points Merc Tech!

(in reply to ExquisiteStings)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 5:14:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Subject vs Citizen, a thought:
The monarch owns all withing the realm by virtue of divine right and his "subjects" own property and conduct business his leave.
The "citizen" is a part and responsible for the welfare of the state and delegates his responsibility for the day to day management of the realm to his elected representatives


The above is bullshit regarding Britain, just as it was when the term "subjects" was more common in the UK. the Divine Right of Kings hasnt existed legally since around 1680.

Some arseholes have argued this isnt the case, but no point letting facts get in the way.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 5:59:26 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
My personal view is that when they break in to your home, or pull a weapon on you they are fair game.


I think where we have disagreements are on things like does having a flashlight constitute "pulling a weapon"?

And can the pulled weapon be imaginary?

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 6:36:23 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
My personal view is that when they break in to your home, or pull a weapon on you they are fair game.


I think where we have disagreements are on things like does having a flashlight constitute "pulling a weapon"?

And can the pulled weapon be imaginary?


We recently had a thread were a man was beaten to death with........as flashlight so it can be.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/5/2014 8:55:11 PM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Subject vs Citizen, a thought:
The monarch owns all withing the realm by virtue of divine right and his "subjects" own property and conduct business his leave.
The "citizen" is a part and responsible for the welfare of the state and delegates his responsibility for the day to day management of the realm to his elected representatives


The above is bullshit regarding Britain, just as it was when the term "subjects" was more common in the UK. the Divine Right of Kings hasnt existed legally since around 1680.

Some arseholes have argued this isnt the case, but no point letting facts get in the way.



I agree, Britain called it quits with the divine right of kings and the people existing by the sufferance of the king with the Roundheads gave Charles I a serious haircut.
I still think "on the sufference and at the command of the government" when I hear people described as "subjects".... too much research between the ears perhaps.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/6/2014 2:09:18 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		You will be hard pressed to find any Brit who calls him/herself a subject. Some of your fellow citizens have done so to try and prove a point though.

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/6/2014 5:39:05 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

Here's a thought that should make you sick. In NJ, self defense simply doesn't exist. If you successfully fend off an attacker, you are just as subject to arrest, prosecution, and incarceration as if you initiated the attack.

Not true.
Self defense is a defense against assault and battery everywhere in the US.
http://www.newjersey-legal-guide.com/New-Jersey-Self-Defense.html

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/6/2014 7:33:14 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
We recently had a thread were a man was beaten to death with........as flashlight so it can be.


People have been beaten to death by hand, does having hands constitute pulling a weapon?

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Profile   Post #: 257
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/6/2014 7:37:53 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		what about if one puts their hands up when confronted with a paranoid stand your grounder, do the raised hands constitute brandishing a deadly weapon?

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/6/2014 7:58:29 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Bare hands:
It is actually quite difficult to kill someone with bare hands unless you surprise them. But persons that are trained for hand to hand combat could and have been prosecuted for battery with a deadly weapon after hitting someone. (Professional boxer in bar fight. Martial arts instructor)
Remember that if you threaten a person with your hand, that is "assault". If you hit someone with your hand that is "battery". If you are big, burly, and aggressive looking; threatening a 72 year old grandmother with your hand can be construed as causing a feeling of imminent danger to life or bodily harm. Granny Clampett can cap your ass and probably walk away without being charged.

This brought up the old urban myth of "My hands are registered as deadly weapons". Yeah, it has been done by boxing promoters to get their client in the press. There is also a myth that new black belts have an amount of time to register their hands with the FBI or face federal charges. Now, if you feel your hands need to be registered as deadly weapons this link will prove helpful.

http://www.martialviews.com/2013/04/how-to-register-your-hands-as-deadly.html

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 3/6/2014 8:05:53 AM   
lovmuffin


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Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

what about if one puts their hands up when confronted with a paranoid stand your grounder, do the raised hands constitute brandishing a deadly weapon?



No but you should shoot both hands so he can't pull out a weapon.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to GotSteel)
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