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RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 1:26:27 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

If now-illegal guns were to be put into the same category of heinous criminality and acted upon by law enforcement agencies accordingly, the problem could be solved without too much delay - no?

When it comes to tough laws against felony possession of firearms and violent crime, we already have them. Not that gun owners would object to making them tougher. But in a sorry tale, repeated all over the country, we don't fucking enforce the ones we already have. Criminals are routinely allowed to plead to lesser offenses that put them back on the streets in short order.

Dozens of federal agents from around the country set up shop in the St. Louis area over the last four months, working undercover... [they] netted more than 200 arrests, charges against 159 defendants, and the seizure of 267 guns and several pounds of drugs... Of those charged, 78 percent were already convicted felons, officials said, who had amassed more than 500 previous convictions between them. ~St. Louis Post-Dispatch 

K.


.....................Oh and what were the 500 previous convictions for?


Yeah K, what were they for. Would you please list them in chronological order numbering them 1 - 500 and to whom they applied.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 321
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 1:32:57 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.



Really? When? By whom?



Try the National Academy of Science and American Statistical Association.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 10/9/2013 1:39:52 PM >

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 322
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 1:46:31 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.



Really? When? By whom?


I know that at least one antigun activist who is a criminologist found Kleck disturbing because it was so compelling and well researched.
Keep in mind if someone said "what is this on page 12" and it support self defense Nosathro considers it debunked.

National Academy of Science counts, Journal of Police Analysis and Management counts, American Statistical Association counts, Journal of Quantitative Criminology counts, Berkeley Media Studies Group, counts, Harvard Injury Control Research counts.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 10/9/2013 1:51:39 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 323
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 2:05:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.



Really? When? By whom?


I know that at least one antigun activist who is a criminologist found Kleck disturbing because it was so compelling and well researched.
Keep in mind if someone said "what is this on page 12" and it support self defense Nosathro considers it debunked.

National Academy of Science counts, Journal of Police Analysis and Management counts, American Statistical Association counts, Journal of Quantitative Criminology counts, Berkeley Media Studies Group, counts, Harvard Injury Control Research counts.

And in spite of it being "debunked" Newsweek used Kleck as a primary source for an article on firearm usage.
They aren't a right wing publication by any stretch of the imagination.
Besides you have quoted sources "proving" incredible crime rates for Saudi Arabia and backing the absurd notion that the 2nd was to protect slavery.
Any source posted by you has to be assumed to be questionable or misrepresented.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 324
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 2:07:09 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.



Really? When? By whom?


I know that at least one antigun activist who is a criminologist found Kleck disturbing because it was so compelling and well researched.
Keep in mind if someone said "what is this on page 12" and it support self defense Nosathro considers it debunked.

National Academy of Science counts, Journal of Police Analysis and Management counts, American Statistical Association counts, Journal of Quantitative Criminology counts, Berkeley Media Studies Group, counts, Harvard Injury Control Research counts.

By debunked you no doubt mean attacked be cause it most assuredly has not been refuted.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 325
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 2:46:18 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.


Sir, since you feel you have the authority to tell us what we can use which of the dozen or so other studies which blow your position out of the water will you give us permission to use?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 326
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 4:35:02 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Using taglines to cast slurs is cowardly.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 4:45:08 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		It's kind of a silly tagline, Bama. It says so many wrong things in so few words. No offence.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 328
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 4:59:01 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's kind of a silly tagline, Bama. It says so many wrong things in so few words. No offence.

I am silly and stupid but I shouldn't be offended.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 329
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:00:50 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.

You can also find this on Wikipedia.

"Also" indeed... more plagiarizing and bullshit.

In January 2013, President Barack Obama directed the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to, along with other federal agencies, immediately begin identifying the most pressing problems in firearm violence research. The CDC and the CDC Foundation asked the IOM, in collaboration with the National Research Council, to convene a committee tasked with developing a potential research agenda that focuses on the causes of, possible interventions to, and strategies to minimize the burden of firearm-related violence.

The committee's report, published by the National Academies Press, found that armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker...

Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.

Additionally, the committe reports the finding that...

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year -- in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

Interestingly in this connection, the report notes that some scholars argue for a lower estimate of 108,000 DGUs based on NCVS data, but discounts that conclusion because respondents were not asked about defensive gun use.

Source: Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm Related Violence

And just for good measure, here is Kleck's response to McDowell:

Degrading Scientific Standards to Get the Defensive Gun Use Estimate Down

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/9/2013 5:08:57 PM >

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:01:15 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's kind of a silly tagline, Bama. It says so many wrong things in so few words. No offence.

I am silly and stupid but I shouldn't be offended.



No, he said the tagline was silly and incorrect, not you, just the tagline.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 331
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:02:27 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Using taglines to cast slurs is cowardly.

It is only a slur if you want it to be.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 332
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:03:30 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Using taglines to cast slurs is cowardly.

It is only a slur if you want it to be.


It is still incorrect, even if you dont want it to be.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 333
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:05:16 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

And don't try to use Lott's or Kleck's study both have been debunked.



Really? When? By whom?


I know that at least one antigun activist who is a criminologist found Kleck disturbing because it was so compelling and well researched.
Keep in mind if someone said "what is this on page 12" and it support self defense Nosathro considers it debunked.

National Academy of Science counts, Journal of Police Analysis and Management counts, American Statistical Association counts, Journal of Quantitative Criminology counts, Berkeley Media Studies Group, counts, Harvard Injury Control Research counts.

And in spite of it being "debunked" Newsweek used Kleck as a primary source for an article on firearm usage.
They aren't a right wing publication by any stretch of the imagination.
Besides you have quoted sources "proving" incredible crime rates for Saudi Arabia and backing the absurd notion that the 2nd was to protect slavery.
Any source posted by you has to be assumed to be questionable or misrepresented.


When a Study is published it now in the public domain, anyone can use it. However when the Science Academies that are to review and test the accuracy of the study and find it not creditable then the study is not been proven. It is interesting to note that Kleck never defended his study. Lott in an attempt to prove his findings went as far as to submit his study under an alias. In my view when the Science community declares a study not proven, that means it not proof of anything. My information on crime in Saudi Arabia was by the State Department and disproved you statement the Saudi Arabia was crime free. And yes as I have shown there is evidence that the 2nd Amendment was to protect slavery. As they say the truth hurts.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:06:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Using taglines to cast slurs is cowardly.

It is only a slur if you want it to be.


It is still incorrect, even if you dont want it to be.


You just don't like it even if it is correct.
See my other tagline.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 335
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:10:02 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		The first time I heard that it was at a gun show in the early 90's. It went "if you own a gun you're a citizen, if you don't you're a subject". I have always heard it recited among gun owners wisecracking about other Americans who are anti gun. That's where it comes from.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 336
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:11:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		When a Study is published it now in the public domain, anyone can use it. However when the Science Academies that are to review and test the accuracy of the study and find it not creditable then the study is not been proven. It is interesting to note that Kleck never defended his study. Lott in an attempt to prove his findings went as far as to submit his study under an alias. In my view when the Science community declares a study not proven, that means it not proof of anything. My information on crime in Saudi Arabia was by the State Department and disproved you statement the Saudi Arabia was crime free. And yes as I have shown there is evidence that the 2nd Amendment was to protect slavery. As they say the truth hurts.


Then you must be in great pain.
I watched Lott defend his paper for the review board in person on CSPAN so as usual you are blowing hot air.
As for slavery, and for that matter Saudi, there are reports out there that show the pyramids were built by aliens.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:11:58 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

My information on crime in Saudi Arabia was by the State Department

If it was, the State Department is wildly out of touch with reality.

But hey, you'll be right back with a link. Right?

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:15:23 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		My information on crime in Saudi Arabia was by the State Department

Who just admitted that the attacks prevented by snooping on Americans was exaggerated by a factor of better than 7.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/9/2013 5:15:53 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You just don't like it even if it is correct.
See my other tagline.


Well brains, your facts about what constitutes a British Citizen are also incorrect. You also fail to get the difference between cant owning a gun and not wanting to own one.

So one of your taglines points out the folly of the other. Not many people are smart enough to do that, so kudos to you.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 340
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