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RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 5:06:32 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Comparing your rights to ours is ludicrous.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

It's almost fair to say you don't have any.

K.



No it isnt, it is all about choice. I thought you were bright enough to get this, obviously not.

Your link doesnt seem to work.




We have choice too. Matter of fact, we can make a choice you can't.

What's your point?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 361
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 5:08:36 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

This started when in another thread I stated "a citizen ,and somewhat less a subject has a responsibility to protect society"
Polite took this as a personal insult and went wild over it even though I wasn't even talking to him at the time.
I did not even interject the quote you are so upset about into the conversation but after he made such a big deal about it when someone else I put it in my tagline to put a burr under his saddle and for no other reason.
A week later he tried to stir up a big fight over this which he has successfully drawn several people into.
My last post to you was perhaps too harsh considering you stepped into the middle of something.


Now you are just being a wanker. You threw up a slur and claimed otherwise. You made a point of asking me to come to this thread, and followed it up by asking if I had appeared, you started the name calling here, since you felt being unmoderated it was okay.

You got your wish, I am here and you dont like what I have to say.......fucking laughable shit from you, as per usual.

Its just a shame you cant be responsible for your own actions.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 362
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 5:10:51 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

We have choice too. Matter of fact, we can make a choice you can't.

What's your point?



My point is we can own arms if we wish, but choose not to.

Show me where I have ever said you shouldnt have a choice to own firearms in general ?

If you cant then stfu.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 363
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 5:38:43 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

We have choice too. Matter of fact, we can make a choice you can't.

What's your point?



My point is we can own arms if we wish, but choose not to.

Show me where I have ever said you shouldnt have a choice to own firearms in general ?

If you cant then stfu.




That's (bolded) changing the subject from No it isnt, it is all about choice to other than the simple fact that here we can make choices you can't. It's not that you can't own a firearm, but you sure as hell can't own what we can.

Now can you?

Unless you can - STFU !!!!!


Choosing not to does not equate to ability to choose.




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 364
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 5:40:04 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It's almost fair to say you don't have any.

Untrue. We have very extensive rights not to get shot.

I appreciate the honest admission inherent in changing the subject.

K.



Nice try, K. The right not to get shot is inherently a part of the gun control issue. It's also a major freedom that needs to be included in any debate about 'gun freedom'.

Mind you, congratulations to the gun freaks on doing such a great job of obliterating such things from all consideration so well and for so long.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 365
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 5:57:06 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It's almost fair to say you don't have any.

Untrue. We have very extensive rights not to get shot.

I appreciate the honest admission inherent in changing the subject.

K.



Nice try, K. The right not to get shot is inherently a part of the gun control issue. It's also a major freedom that needs to be included in any debate about 'gun freedom'.

Mind you, congratulations to the gun freaks on doing such a great job of obliterating such things from all consideration so well and for so long.


Everyone has the inherent right of not being shot. It's tantamount to the right to breathe. Both exist a priori. Simple fact is, people are intentionally shot, stabbed, suffocated, bludgeoned, etc.

It's not about your right not to be [shot], it's about those who violate your right. Gun control is a symptom of the inability of ~criminal control. Gun control removes a (potentially equalizing; 90lb woman v 200lb man) tool which the criminal retains.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 366
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 6:46:34 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: Yachtie
It's not about your right not to be [shot], it's about those who violate your right.


It is. It really is about your right not to get shot. It's just that in other first world countries the assumption is that prevention is better than cure.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 367
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 6:56:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


ORIGINAL: Yachtie
It's not about your right not to be [shot], it's about those who violate your right.


It is. It really is about your right not to get shot. It's just that in other first world countries the assumption is that prevention is better than cure.



But then you have universal healthcare, so that may be the difference, since preventative medicine is communism here.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 368
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 8:31:28 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

That's (bolded) changing the subject from No it isnt, it is all about choice to other than the simple fact that here we can make choices you can't. It's not that you can't own a firearm, but you sure as hell can't own what we can.

Now can you?

Unless you can - STFU !!!!!


Choosing not to does not equate to ability to choose.



Choosing not to does indeed equal the ability to choose in our case, which is what I was refering to..

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 369
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 9:06:43 AM   
Just0Us0Two


Posts: 135
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It's almost fair to say you don't have any.



Untrue. We have very extensive rights not to get shot.


Yes, you're so much safer from evil old guns. Now if only you could do something to keep people from being beheaded on your streets. Hmmmm, maybe some means of protecting oneself? Nah, that's just crazy talk.

I'm sure as he was being hacked to death he was thinking, Thank god I'm safe from the evils of gun violence.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 370
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 9:12:33 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Nice try, K. The right not to get shot is inherently a part of the gun control issue. It's also a major freedom that needs to be included in any debate about 'gun freedom'.

Mind you, congratulations to the gun freaks on doing such a great job of obliterating such things from all consideration so well and for so long.

Yeah, it seems to be working quite well. You're still pushing to change the subject. So I guess it's fair to say you're willing to admit that with the UK's gun laws it's almost like not having any gun rights at all.

So turning to the right not to get shot, I have a question. I understand that guns are a factor in the risk of getting shot, but is that all you care about? I ask because I'm curious how you feel about people having a right not to be assaulted, robbed, and raped. You don't mention those, but you claim it's the the "gun freaks" who are ignoring such things. It seems to me that you are the one doing that. Because a gun is a very effective factor to have on your side when it comes to not being assaulted, robbed, or raped.

Would you be happy if the homicide rate went down but assaults, robberies, and rapes went up? There would be fewer dead, but more risk of assault, robbery and rape, and more victims whose quality of life has been shattered by crime. You make it sound like a simple seesaw relation that an idiot should be able to see. When the number of guns goes down, safety goes up and happiness abounds.

There is no evidence that this is a general truth.   

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 9:16:22 AM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 371
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 9:29:09 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

That's (bolded) changing the subject from No it isnt, it is all about choice to other than the simple fact that here we can make choices you can't. It's not that you can't own a firearm, but you sure as hell can't own what we can.

Now can you?

Unless you can - STFU !!!!!


Choosing not to does not equate to ability to choose.



Choosing not to does indeed equal the ability to choose in our case, which is what I was refering to..




That is a valid choice.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 372
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 9:35:31 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


ORIGINAL: Yachtie
It's not about your right not to be [shot], it's about those who violate your right.


It is. It really is about your right not to get shot. It's just that in other first world countries the assumption is that prevention is better than cure.



Think of having a firearm as a means of prevention (against being maimed, killed, etc). That is what you are suggesting, isn't it?

The cure isn't taking away the means of prevention. The cure is ~offing the criminal.




< Message edited by Yachtie -- 10/10/2013 9:36:56 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 373
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 10:03:28 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Us0Two

I'm sure as he was being hacked to death he was thinking, Thank god I'm safe from the evils of gun violence.


I wondered when someone would be crass enough to mention an extremist attack, I sure as hell knew someone would though.

But for the record, there are less murders, per capita in the UK, thats even without guns.

(in reply to Just0Us0Two)
Profile   Post #: 374
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 10:04:43 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

That's (bolded) changing the subject from No it isnt, it is all about choice to other than the simple fact that here we can make choices you can't. It's not that you can't own a firearm, but you sure as hell can't own what we can.

Now can you?

Unless you can - STFU !!!!!


Choosing not to does not equate to ability to choose.



Choosing not to does indeed equal the ability to choose in our case, which is what I was refering to..




That is a valid choice.


Which is what I said.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 375
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 10:26:57 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Us0Two

I'm sure as he was being hacked to death he was thinking, Thank god I'm safe from the evils of gun violence.


I wondered when someone would be crass enough to mention an extremist attack, I sure as hell knew someone would though.

But for the record, there are less murders, per capita in the UK, thats even without guns.


Yes we have more murders per capita without guns than you do all together, do you see the problem with gun control being the answer.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 376
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 10:37:34 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Us0Two

I'm sure as he was being hacked to death he was thinking, Thank god I'm safe from the evils of gun violence.


I wondered when someone would be crass enough to mention an extremist attack, I sure as hell knew someone would though.

But for the record, there are less murders, per capita in the UK, thats even without guns.


Yes we have more murders per capita without guns than you do all together, do you see the problem with gun control being the answer.


Your post makes no sense. Gun controls work, since we have very few mass killings with guns. You can count the number of mass shootings in the last 100 years on one hand. So tell me again how gun control doesnt work.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 377
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 11:40:30 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Nice try, K. The right not to get shot is inherently a part of the gun control issue. It's also a major freedom that needs to be included in any debate about 'gun freedom'.

Mind you, congratulations to the gun freaks on doing such a great job of obliterating such things from all consideration so well and for so long.

Yeah, it seems to be working quite well. You're still pushing to change the subject. So I guess it's fair to say you're willing to admit that with the UK's gun laws it's almost like not having any gun rights at all.

So turning to the right not to get shot, I have a question. I understand that guns are a factor in the risk of getting shot, but is that all you care about? I ask because I'm curious how you feel about people having a right not to be assaulted, robbed, and raped. You don't mention those, but you claim it's the the "gun freaks" who are ignoring such things. It seems to me that you are the one doing that. Because a gun is a very effective factor to have on your side when it comes to not being assaulted, robbed, or raped.

Would you be happy if the homicide rate went down but assaults, robberies, and rapes went up? There would be fewer dead, but more risk of assault, robbery and rape, and more victims whose quality of life has been shattered by crime. You make it sound like a simple seesaw relation that an idiot should be able to see. When the number of guns goes down, safety goes up and happiness abounds.

There is no evidence that this is a general truth.   

K.



Oh I don't know about "no evidence", if we are talking about the UK. Crime Statistics from the Office of National Statistics publication released in July 2013 indicates that England and Wales had a overall 9% drop in crime.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-march-2013/index.html

Now please just spare me you customary ranting, raving, I know this will upset you but, you asked for it.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 10/10/2013 11:44:23 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 378
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 11:50:42 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		And Florida had a 33% drop in crime when they instituted concealed carry.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 379
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 11:50:53 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

It is interesting to note that Kleck never defended his study.

It is also interesting to note that there's a link to Kleck's defense in a post before yours on the same page.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

As they say the truth hurts.

Normal people, yes. You, not so much it seems.

K.



And you did not read my post as well: " In the Degrading Scientific Standards it is Kleck attach against McDowell. Kleck has never appeared before a Science review board and the Academy of Science has declared his work not proven which is good enough me." Post 342. Ah the sun is out.

We cannot avoid the truth, even when it is not what we want to hear or express.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 380
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