RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment ***

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RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 12:13:30 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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they are your laws.. forfeiture laws in the US have been around for a long time..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One miscarriage of justice does not make the next one right.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 601

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 7:32:39 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj4444
I thought the vids were interesting.. the most interesting aspect to me was how the shock and stress of being attacked affected the different unknowing participants that thought the attack was real..

Sure they were interesting but your signature line states they are "Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, part 1" and "Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, part 2"

I'm calling bullshit on the videos being proof of anything. Instead of an expert marksman playing the part of the active shooter, ABC should have picked an idiot if they wanted a more realistic simulation.

Maybe you think it would be better to call some other guys with guns, wait until they arrive and hope for the best if some asshole comes in shooting the place up. I guess in your dream world those good guys with guns will get there in time to save you.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 602

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 8:11:18 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj4444
I thought the vids were interesting.. the most interesting aspect to me was how the shock and stress of being attacked affected the different unknowing participants that thought the attack was real..

Sure they were interesting but your signature line states they are "Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, part 1" and "Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, part 2"

I'm calling bullshit on the videos being proof of anything. Instead of an expert marksman playing the part of the active shooter, ABC should have picked an idiot if they wanted a more realistic simulation.

Maybe you think it would be better to call some other guys with guns, wait until they arrive and hope for the best if some asshole comes in shooting the place up. I guess in your dream world those good guys with guns will get there in time to save you.

that was simply the title given by the person that posted them on youtube (which wasn't me) but I am sticking with it since you have proven (by watching it yourself) that a title like that will get gun owners to watch them..

I think if naïve gun owners watch those vids it will give them a wake up call.. the purpose (imo) is not necessarily for them to give up their guns (as you mistakenly think I think), but to show them the reality of shooting their gun in a seemingly real situation & how unprepared they really are.. not the "Dirty Harry" make-my-day dream world..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 603

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 8:16:50 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

they are your laws.. forfeiture laws in the US have been around for a long time..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One miscarriage of justice does not make the next one right.

that does not change your laws (the Innocence Project shows there is no end of miscarriages of justice).. and I certainly don't agree with many of your laws, but since they are laws of your land, its sorta stupid to ignore them and then squawk about a miscarriage as you rot in jail for a few decades and/or lose all your money and assets..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 604

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 8:39:42 AM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

The video is very much in fact of what happens. It is called "The Fight or Flight Response" our bodies react this way. Even trained people, such as police have this problem. Remember the Empire Building shooting? The gun fight at the OK Corral is the most famous example of this. In less than 30 seconds some 30 rounds are fired between two groups less then 6 feet from each other. Billy Clanton was the first killed by Doc Holiday shot gun which was also the first shot. Tom and Frank McLaury were also killed Virgil and Morgan Earp were wounded but not seriously.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 605

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 9:00:25 AM

eulero83

Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Instead of an expert marksman playing the part of the active shooter, ABC should have picked an idiot if they wanted a more realistic simulation.

The video was about overstimating the gun's efficency shoving what can go wrong when average people are under pressure, it's not about their succeding or being shot it was about the not understanding what was happening around, the fact they were shot was marginal as they could not realize it till they saw the paint marks.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 606

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 9:18:31 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
......them to give up their guns (as you mistakenly think I think), but to show them the reality of shooting their gun in a seemingly real situation & how unprepared they really are.. not the "Dirty Harry" make-my-day dream world..

I think I think that you think many of the gun control proposals we've heard in recent months or even years might be a cool idea but that's beside the point.

The point is we are more prepared than what you or ABC give us credit for. The videos are not a realistic simulation for several reasons, the main reason being that the guy playing the part of the active shooter is an expert marksman who instructs professionals in small arms combat. To put him up against an inexperienced or intermediate marksman is grossly one sided.

ABC, of course is going to do whatever it takes to put the fix in and get the results suitable for yet another one of their crap loads of anti gun presentations. It's just another example of a major news outlet trying to shape public opinion. Many will suck for that kind of dribble. They will even call it "proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world" and put it up on You Tube where it will ultimately end up as a link in someones signature line.

But by all means, explain to me how I'm wrong that those vids are proof of little more than ABC's anti gun bias. Go ahead, make my day.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 10/30/2013 9:57:22 AM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 607

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 9:51:20 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Instead of an expert marksman playing the part of the active shooter, ABC should have picked an idiot if they wanted a more realistic simulation.

The video was about overstimating the gun's efficency shoving what can go wrong when average people are under pressure, it's not about their succeding or being shot it was about the not understanding what was happening around, the fact they were shot was marginal as they could not realize it till they saw the paint marks.

I didn't say the videos should have been about whether the participant should have, could have, or would have succeeded. I said they were not realistic and that they are certainly not "proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world". If the videos are not realistic then they can't realistically show any overestimation of a guns efficiency or what can go wrong. If they were realistic, not something I would expect from the anti gun ABC, then we might have been able to glean something useful.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 10/30/2013 9:54:44 AM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to eulero83)

Post #: 608

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 10:04:09 AM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

But by all means, explain to me how I'm wrong that those vids are proof of little more than ABC's anti gun bias. Go ahead, make my day.

You're not wrong. Those videos are a joke, as is anyone who tries to use them as "proof" of anything other than ABC's desire to push an agenda.

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(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 609

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 10:12:29 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

But by all means, explain to me how I'm wrong that those vids are proof of little more than ABC's anti gun bias. Go ahead, make my day.

You're not wrong. Those videos are a joke, as is anyone who tries to use them as "proof" of anything other than ABC's desire to push an agenda.

You made my day

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 610

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 10:29:59 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

But by all means, explain to me how I'm wrong that those vids are proof of little more than ABC's anti gun bias. Go ahead, make my day.

You're not wrong. Those videos are a joke, as is anyone who tries to use them as "proof" of anything other than ABC's desire to push an agenda.

You made my day

Who gives a damn about ABC's vids? The stats on defensive use of firearms says it all. Not all defensive uses need even be successful except to the anti-gunner who sees such as proof of their assertions. Not all cops uses of firearms are successful neither do they never hit a non-combatant. The anti-gunners are cowards, preferring nearer to zero defensive capability to at least being on par to that of the assailant or better.

The vids prove nothing.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 611

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 10:31:25 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

20/20 also on ABC got in some trouble during the first debate of guns that look like assault weapons ban.
They did a show to show how dangerous the AR was including a section at the range where they demonstrated its power by exploding watermelons.
Problem was when they used the .223 they made little holes in the watermelon.
No problem, they edited it, showing the AR being fired and the melon being struck by a 30-06.
Came out because they played the same games with the gas tanks on chevy trucks

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 612

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 10:56:03 AM

igor2003

Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
I thought this was worth reposting as it was toward the end of the other thread, and it's on every post in the signature line from tj444. While they are worth a watch they only prove the need for training and practice.

I thought the vids were interesting.. the most interesting aspect to me was how the shock and stress of being attacked affected the different unknowing participants that thought the attack was real.. I think how they would react in a real event is something few gun owners have even thought about.. You hear about friendly fire (by military, by cops) and these vids explain/show how that can so easily happen when everyone is freaking out when they are in a real situation.. If I recall correctly,.. the ones shooting back didn't do enough to protect themselves, the girl just stood there, straight up, the one guy sorta squatted down but not enough, and another dude just sat there frozen, he never even got his gun out.. one innocent student almost got hit (by the girl firing back), and the guy shooting back didn't even know what the second shooter was doing (if he was a bad guy or a good guy)..

and yes, the one guy said you would have to practice frequently, cuz even going a month without that and you are screwed in a real event.. so the question is, in actuality how many gun owners get anything but a little training and then think that's all they need? I suspect very few practice at the level needed..

I think a real shooter (given how many people have been killed by one in real events) would be acting pretty much like the shooters in the vids.. I don't think the shooters are under the same kind of stress or the same amount of stress as those being shot at.. I expect most shooters have already considered that they will eventually be killed when the cops arrive and so their goal is just to kill as many as possible before that happens..

A staged “experiment” filmed by ABC news supposedly “proves” concealed carry does not work. Here are some ACTUAL instances that show that gun ownership (not necessarily concealed carry) has and does work. It didn’t take very long to find these. I’m sure there are plenty more instances that can be found just as easily.

http://www.guns.com/2013/10/22/az-concealed-carrier-stops-gunman-opened-fire-rifle-weekend-party/

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-departments/true-stories/wisconsin-crime-stopped-by-legally-armed-citizen/

This one lists 8 separate instances.
http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/crime/8-horrible-crimes-stopped-by-legal-gun-owners.html

http://www.guns.com/2012/08/01/texas-gun-owner-shoot-out/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/09/27/former-firefighter-shoots-kills-armed-robber-with-legal-concealed-handgun-when-i-got-my-chance-i-had-to-take-it/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/07/17/surveillance-vid-shows-71-year-old-concealed-carry-holder-opening-fire-on-would-be-robbers/

http://azdailysun.com/news/local/good-samaritan-argues-for-civilian-gun-use/article_52a87d68-9487-53cf-9bf6-acd351aab835.html

Information taken from a study done by the Cato Institute:
http://marquettetribune.org/2012/02/14/news/concealed-carry-prevents-more-crime-than-it-creates-study-says/

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 613

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 11:04:32 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
The vids prove nothing.

They prove nothing except ABC's anti gun bias.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to igor2003)

Post #: 614

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 11:12:02 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

They prove nothing except ABC's anti gun bias.

----------------------------------------------------------

Any staged demonstration "proves" only what it was intended to prove.
To claim that it reflects reality is absurd.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 615

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 12:17:35 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
......them to give up their guns (as you mistakenly think I think), but to show them the reality of shooting their gun in a seemingly real situation & how unprepared they really are.. not the "Dirty Harry" make-my-day dream world..

I think I think that you think many of the gun control proposals we've heard in recent months or even years might be a cool idea but that's beside the point.

The point is we are more prepared than what you or ABC give us credit for. The videos are not a realistic simulation for several reasons, the main reason being that the guy playing the part of the active shooter is an expert marksman who instructs professionals in small arms combat. To put him up against an inexperienced or intermediate marksman is grossly one sided.

ABC, of course is going to do whatever it takes to put the fix in and get the results suitable for yet another one of their crap loads of anti gun presentations. It's just another example of a major news outlet trying to shape public opinion. Many will suck for that kind of dribble. They will even call it "proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world" and put it up on You Tube where it will ultimately end up as a link in someones signature line.

But by all means, explain to me how I'm wrong that those vids are proof of little more than ABC's anti gun bias. Go ahead, make my day.

listen again to the first 30 seconds of this vid.. this was not 60 minutes alone, it was an experiment along with a Police Investigator, a firearms instructor & the Bethlehem Police Dept to see how average people without crisis training would react.. so it seems the cops want gun owners to realize a real situation is not like playing a video game, etc..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

and to address your contention that mass shooters don't have expert training, some do some don't, but if you are in that situation you don't choose how much training the mass shooter has or how many guns, how many are automatic, semi-automatic, how many rounds he will shoot, etc.. lesser shooters it seems like multiple weapons that can shoot many rounds quickly to maximize the number of people they can kill in their spree..

And no, I don't think gun control "might be a cool idea", as you put it.. I am Canadian and know I the stats show gun control countries are in fact considerably safer..

"The impact of our 65 million handgun population209 can be seen by comparing ourselves to countries that strongly limit access to handguns. For example, in 1995 the U.S. firearms death rate was 13.7 per 100,000; in Canada 3.9 per 100,000; in Australia 2.9 per 100,000; and, in England and Wales it was 0.4 per 100,000"

http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninfive.htm Chapter Five: Facing Facts
http://www.vpc.org/studies/unincont.htm Unintended Consequences
Pro-Handgun Experts Prove That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 616

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 12:29:42 PM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

listen again to the first 30 seconds of this vid.. this was not 60 minutes alone, it was an experiment along with a Police Investigator, a firearms instructor & the Bethlehem Police Dept to see how average people without crisis training would react.. so it seems the cops want gun owners to realize a real situation is not like playing a video game, etc..

Well, duh !!

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 617

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 12:33:05 PM

truckinslave

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

Wyatt Earp never stopped a bullet.
Died in bed at age 80- hero, villain, cook, sheriff, gambler, pimp.....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 618

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 12:38:13 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

most of his brothers and friends did though.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 619

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/30/2013 12:40:58 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

listen again to the first 30 seconds of this vid.. this was not 60 minutes alone, it was an experiment along with a Police Investigator, a firearms instructor & the Bethlehem Police Dept to see how average people without crisis training would react.. so it seems the cops want gun owners to realize a real situation is not like playing a video game, etc..

Well, duh !!

if the cops need to do this experiment to make gun owners realize that its not like a video game or watching dirty harry on tv then that shows they do indeed live in a dream world..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 620

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