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RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 12:21:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Oh those darn Norwegions. An automatic rifle in every home and a third the murder rate of Britian where guns are outlawed. As to a wiki link to a United Nations paper. Bah, I've seen the FBI stats enough to call it BS. My original assertions stand. I think eulero validated my point even while trying to argue.


I was not invalidating the point that guns are not violent by themself, I was invalidating your affirmation that violent crime in the USA is mostly connected to gangs or immigrants, I also cited sources from the US department of justice and they all match with the other numbers. Norway has very restrictive gun laws, automatic rifles are forbidden to civilians for example, some calibers are forbidden as well, and gun ownership is 1/3 of the USA's one, so please cut the crap.



White people aren't allowed in gangs?
Doj has to investigate this blatant racial discrimination.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 681
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 1:15:32 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		and black are also US citizens, so the truth is it doesn't matter, I used the wrong stats. But the question stands, why are you so violent and ? You say gun aviability has nothing to do with it, so what's the reason in your opinion?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 682
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 1:26:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

and black are also US citizens, so the truth is it doesn't matter, I used the wrong stats. But the question stands, why are you so violent and ? You say gun aviability has nothing to do with it, so what's the reason in your opinion?

Lots of reasons.
Gangs
Glorification of gangs
Lack of values
Total warping of the meaning of respect.
Victimization mentality, the idea that certain groups have to be excused their crimes because of past wrongs.
The eagerness to blame anything but the person who committed the crime.
You see it here any time a person has the gall to defend themselves the are instantly attacked as the wrong doer and their assailant is forgotten, even made into the victim.
If it isn't their fault why shouldn't they do it?   
The murder rate in the US with clubs is greater than the murder rate in England, how do you blame that on guns.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 11/3/2013 1:27:23 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 683
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 1:32:03 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

and black are also US citizens, so the truth is it doesn't matter, I used the wrong stats. But the question stands, why are you so violent and ? You say gun aviability has nothing to do with it, so what's the reason in your opinion?

I don't know about anyone else, but a certain kind of person can sometimes cause me to contemplate various unpleasant cures for his condition.

K.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 684
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 2:07:00 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Gangs



it's not a reason for the problem it's part of the problem

quote:



Glorification of gangs



so people join a gang to be with the cool kids?

quote:



Lack of values



probably one of the main reasons but what kind of values do you think will help?

quote:



Total warping of the meaning of respect.



what's supposed to mean?

quote:



Victimization mentality, the idea that certain groups have to be excused their crimes because of past wrongs.
The eagerness to blame anything but the person who committed the crime.



you are the most incarcerated people in the world, I don't think you are eager to excuse anyone.

quote:



You see it here any time a person has the gall to defend themselves the are instantly attacked as the wrong doer and their assailant is forgotten, even made into the victim.
If it isn't their fault why shouldn't they do it?   



1) You have some of the laws with most reasons of justification in the use of deadly force so I don't think this can be one reason
2) the goal shuold be not having to defend yourself at all

quote:



The murder rate in the US with clubs is greater than the murder rate in England, how do you blame that on guns.


but guns are always the first and more effective choice, and no homicides with any other weapon than guns (not only clubs) rate is just lower than the homicide rate in UK.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 685
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 2:56:52 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

it downloads a document from the united nations you can see it checking the link address by the way it's also on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

the other link, the one for the race based stats, is from the us department if justice



Nice link but it doesn't say anywhere that people in the US kill 5 times as many as those in Europe.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 686
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 2:58:49 PM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

My english has been good enough for all the other members, in many other threads. By the way in your posts there are spelling and grammar mistakes, english is not my language what is your excuse?

I used both incarceration and homicides rate as the former gives an idea on how many crimes are committed and the second gives and idea of the violence level and incarceration rate can be influenced by the different legal systems while the homicides can be compared directly, they are numbers... they have the same meaning in all the languages... so just comment them.


Well according to the link you provided...

The legal definition of "intentional homicide" differs among countries. Intentional homicide may or may not include infanticide, assisted suicide or euthanasia.[2]

So no, they don't have the same meaning in all languages

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 687
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:14:35 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		trivial, both UK and US count them in their stats.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 688
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:16:50 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

it downloads a document from the united nations you can see it checking the link address by the way it's also on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

the other link, the one for the race based stats, is from the us department if justice



Nice link but it doesn't say anywhere that people in the US kill 5 times as many as those in Europe.


if the intentional homicide rate in the US is 4.7 and the average rate in european union is 1 then it says that people in US kills 4.7 times more than people in EU

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 11/3/2013 3:19:58 PM >

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 689
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:27:20 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		in the EU it's 1.4 so it's not 5 but 3.5 times anyway it's some times more

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 690
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:44:15 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Gangs




it's not a reason for the problem it's part of the problem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gangs fueled by drug money is our greatest source of crime, so yes it is a cause.  Most any cause is part of the problem.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 691
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:45:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:



Glorification of gangs




so people join a gang to be with the cool kids?


--------------------------------------------------------------------

In many areas being a gang member is a mark of prestige.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 692
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:54:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:



Lack of values



probably one of the main reasons but what kind of values do you think will help?


quote:



Total warping of the meaning of respect.




what's supposed to mean?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These two are linked.
There are numerous cases of people being killed or injured just for not looking down, this being disrespect.  A recent case a teen was beaten with a baseball bat that had nails driven part way in to make spikes.
His crime?
Someone had left a gang colors bandana on the ground and the gang decided that he was the one to pay for it.
Both of these because the ganstas didn't get what they term as respect.
We need to re instill The understanding that you aren't the only one who deserves respect.
Kids need to relearn to respect other people's property and well being.    

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 693
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:56:42 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD



quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Gangs




it's not a reason for the problem it's part of the problem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gangs fueled by drug money is our greatest source of crime, so yes it is a cause.  Most any cause is part of the problem.


So the gratest part of criminals are the greatest source of crime? good to know, the question was why you have so much more?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 694
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:57:17 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:



You see it here any time a person has the gall to defend themselves the are instantly attacked as the wrong doer and their assailant is forgotten, even made into the victim.
If it isn't their fault why shouldn't they do it?   




1) You have some of the laws with most reasons of justification in the use of deadly force so I don't think this can be one reason
2) the goal shuold be not having to defend yourself at all

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course the goal is to not have to defend yourself.
Just cause you don't see it doesn't make it so.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 695
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 3:59:10 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:



Glorification of gangs




so people join a gang to be with the cool kids?


--------------------------------------------------------------------

In many areas being a gang member is a mark of prestige.


probably of power, because they control the area, not prestige, it's not that the mayor gives a prize to the most violent and the biggest in number gang, I suppose.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 696
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 4:02:11 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD




quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Gangs





it's not a reason for the problem it's part of the problem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gangs fueled by drug money is our greatest source of crime, so yes it is a cause.  Most any cause is part of the problem.


So the gratest part of criminals are the greatest source of crime? good to know, the question was why you have so much more?

Because they have developed a subculture that starts with them being victims of society.
This justifies them ignoring the standards of society because it won't help them anyway.
So only the gangs rules and standards count.
Only the gang members really deserve to be treated as people the rest are just sheep to be fleeced.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 697
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 4:05:33 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:



Glorification of gangs





so people join a gang to be with the cool kids?


--------------------------------------------------------------------

In many areas being a gang member is a mark of prestige.


probably of power, because they control the area, not prestige, it's not that the mayor gives a prize to the most violent and the biggest in number gang, I suppose.



I hope you "misunderstood" intentionally.
Since they don't recognize society in general they don't care what the mayor says or does.
The prestige and power come from the peer group. 

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 698
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 4:07:50 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:



Lack of values



probably one of the main reasons but what kind of values do you think will help?


quote:



Total warping of the meaning of respect.




what's supposed to mean?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These two are linked.
There are numerous cases of people being killed or injured just for not looking down, this being disrespect.  A recent case a teen was beaten with a baseball bat that had nails driven part way in to make spikes.
His crime?
Someone had left a gang colors bandana on the ground and the gang decided that he was the one to pay for it.
Both of these because the ganstas didn't get what they term as respect.
We need to re instill The understanding that you aren't the only one who deserves respect.
Kids need to relearn to respect other people's property and well being.    


I suppose this are not the value accepted by the majority of people composing your society, it's just that some are exploiting the weakness of your individualism forming organized groups.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 699
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 11/3/2013 4:16:57 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I suppose this are not the value accepted by the majority of people composing your society, it's just that some are exploiting the weakness of your individualism forming organized groups.

------------------------

Predictable statist view. 

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 700
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